Life, Death, and Personal Transformation with Nick Shaw

Brian Smith  0:00  
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed we've been planted, and having been planted would grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Hey there, welcome back to another episode of grief to growth. I'm Brian Smith in case you don't know who I am. And we explored things life, death, the meaning of life. All those little little things are things we talk about on this program. Today, we have the privilege of interviewing a remarkable individual whose life and story and his insights are not just going to be inspiring. I think they're also transformative. His name is Nick shy, he's an accomplished executive coach. He's an author and a speaker. And he's known for his deep understanding of personal transformation, self discovery and authentic leadership. And our discussion today we're going to talk about Nick's introspective journey highlighted in his book, my teacher, my son lessons on life, loss and love. And this book isn't just a memoir, it's a beacon of hope and guidance, and invites us all to look and work with honesty and with self compassion, his personal experience of losing a son, William and a young age, as propelled Nick to help others navigate the complex emotions and experiences and encouraging us to live a life with intention and meaning. So throughout the episode, the plan is to dive into questions that touch upon how Nick is embraced and virtually with an open mind, his advice to parents who have gone through similar tragedies, and the way the ways he's implemented his learnings in his life and his work. We'll also talk about his journey into authorship and how that's an aided in his healing and his learning. So whether you're seeking to understand the depths of grief, look for ways to transform your leadership style, or really just in need of a story that resonates with the spirit of human resilience. I think this episodes for you. So join us as we explore these profound lessons with with Nick shop. And after the episode, go over to grief to growth.com/community. And we can talk about it there and answer any questions you might have. So with that, I want to welcome to group to growth Nick shop.

Nick Shaw  2:34  
Hey, Brian, thank you for having me on your show. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation and sharing my story with with your audience.

Brian Smith  2:44  
I'm glad to have you here. We you and I share something in common right off the bat the loss of a child. And firstly, I like to ask people before we talk about the tragedy. Tell me about William what was what's William like?

Nick Shaw  2:58  
Yeah, so first off, thank you for that question. I think it's such an important question, to ask someone who's lost anybody? Right? You know, we, all we really want to do is share our loved one that we lost with the world. And so William was this. Super. So he was my oldest son. So firstborn, and with that he was he was a very good boy, right? He liked he liked to please, in some ways, you know, he, he, he definitely follow the rules and things of that nature. Is there a compassionate little boy, I think that was one of the most remarkable things about him. He could just sort of sense what was going on with someone and sort of knew how to be with them. And sometimes that just meant giving people space. So I remember countless times where I felt that from him. He loved to love, like he just loved his family. He loved his parents, his little brother. You know, he would always try to give his his big bear hug with his bony little body, but you just felt that love kind of coursing through you. He's an active child love to love to engage in different sports. He's not so much a team sports guy. He did what I would call more alternative sports like skateboarding, skiing parkour, which free running which was kind of that was his favorite sport. Yeah, he loved music, too. That was another thing that he and I shared. And he was just a beautiful, caring, loving little boy. One of the common things people said about him after he died was that he was a he was an old soul. So that that's kind of that's kind of how I think of him. That seems

Brian Smith  4:34  
to be common with children that leave early that compassion, that zest for life. That feeling of an old soul. I hear that a lot. I've talked to a lot of parents who have had children transition. And that's the same spirit a common theme. Yeah,

Nick Shaw  4:49  
yeah, it's I get it in one respect. I mean, and everyone has a different perspective on life, death and what might be, might come after. And there's a big part of me as, as I've reflected and gone over everything that happened to William into our family that he was here for a purpose. And it was just, you know, he served whatever that purpose was, and then he, it was his time to go to whatever's next.

Brian Smith  5:21  
And if you don't mind me asking, how did he pass,

Nick Shaw  5:24  
we were on a family vacation. In Big Sky, Montana, it was February 19 2019. So we were we were family who skied I grew up skiing, and it was a passion sport of mine. And, and William really liked it. He was he was a good skier, he was on the ski team. And we were, you know, started the day, like any other day, and he and I would went to the top of the mountain to ski some of the more challenging runs when my wife and younger son were on the lower part of the mountain, because at the time, my younger son was six, he couldn't quite, you know, go to the top of the mountain. And you know, we're making our way to the bottom to meet up with my wife and youngest son Kai, we're on what's called a catwalk which is effectively it's like a, it's a road that kind of winds itself winds its way down the mountain, it's just an easier way to the bottom. And I was in front of him because my I'm heavier them so my weight carried me a little bit ahead and probably 1015 feet, and I really didn't think much of it, these things, you barely have to turn you kind of just it's a nice, mellow ride to the bottom. And as I made a curve in the road, because it kind of winds down the mountain, a skier came whizzing past me and said, Hey, was that your kid who went into the woods because off the side of these catwalks or slopes of you know, deep, deep powder, snow emits trees. And so, you know, it kind of surprised me, I quickly stopped and took my skis off and started walking back up the hill. And when I tried to look for when he was nowhere to be found, so I don't even know what happened to him. Eventually, a search ensued. And he was eventually found. He somehow something caused him to ski off the side of the catwalk and he hit a tree and he died on impact. Oh, man,

Brian Smith  7:10  
I'm so sorry. This. I, you know, I It's hard to imagine all of our losses are tragic and terrible, but that that sudden, loss, you know, I know what that's like. So how did how did you and your family responds after, after the loss of William

Nick Shaw  7:30  
it was, you know, as you know, it turns your life upside down. I mean, you know, this is not in anybody's playbook for how their life is going to unfold. And, you know, we were just thrown into a state of chaos, uncertainty, you know, our lives are just turned upside down. I mean, literally, everything that we thought how life was gonna unfold, it was it was all done that was gone. And so, you know, as we made our way back to Massachusetts, from Big Sky, you know, each of us, my wife, my younger son, how we started our process, or each of our unique and individual process of grieving. You know, I think one of the things that saved us was, you know, my wife and I had this very clear resolve that we were not going to let this destroy the rest of our family. You know, because you hear the horror stories, right? When something like this happens to can put a lot of strain on on a marriage, and then that may fall apart. And then that further impacts any surviving children. So we were just we had this, what I call look in the eye moment of, we're not going to let this destroy us. And we, we got a lot of help, you know, we join grief groups, we got a family therapist, we do whatever we needed to do, I was fortunate enough to be able to take a six month leave of absence, because I needed to just process and make sense of it all. So we did whatever we needed to just to try to give each other space. We need it but also move through the process of grief together. Yeah.

Brian Smith  9:03  
So you you leaned into it your sounds like you were very intentional about about healing.

Nick Shaw  9:08  
Absolutely, yeah. And I think it's a it's a great way to it's a great way to frame it. Yes. I mean, I was I was Yeah, I mean, I guess by nature, I'm an intentional guy. You know, and in part my my training as a coach probably helped me with that. But for me, I was very intentional with how I how I processed everything. I made it almost a routine every day to really spend time and sit with it and meditate on it and you know, pose the question, What can I learn from this?

Brian Smith  9:39  
So you are a coach before William passed? I was Yeah, okay. Yeah. And so how did your coaching change? Do you think after that?

Nick Shaw  9:51  
You know, I think for one thing I that I learned and all this was about, you know, vulnerability. I I'm so I think as one of the things I now bring more to my coaching is my own vulnerability as a way of connecting with my clients. Both both, both the process of grieving and the process of, I guess, which is part of grieving was writing my book really caused me to open up in ways I never had before. And now I bring that more to my coaching. And I believe that, you know, when you are vulnerable, it's an invitation for others to be vulnerable with you. And in particular, when you're talking about coaching individuals, if you want people to grow and transform, it is gonna require some vulnerability on their part. So if you can invite that in with with your own way of being then that that can only be beneficial to the client. Yeah.

Brian Smith  10:45  
And how you said your son, Kai was six at the time, how is he dealt with the losing his big brother.

Nick Shaw  10:55  
He's, he's been remarkably resilient, which has been really an inspiration for me, and I talked about this in the book. And he was six, right. And so you know, and I said, if, if this is going to happen to child six is a is a is probably one of the better ages can have, because he, he still has memories of William and he still talks about William today, and he loves looking at pictures of William. But at that age, he's not old enough to really get how big, you know, the gravity of the situation. So at that age, he was, you know, he, again, like I guess the best way, he was just very resilient. And he just brought it on with his life, you know, which, which is interesting to observe as a parent, because you're, you're struggling to do that. And even as he's grown up, you know, because he's now he's 11, he'll be 12. And May, he continues to just process it in his own in his own way. You know, and the interesting thing for him is he'll continue to process this through every sort of developmental, or stage of development, right? Because he'll continue to make sense in different ways for him as he grows up. So it's all it's an unfolding process for him.

Brian Smith  12:13  
So how did you I again, devastation, I can only imagine, how did you go from that to looking at this through a more positive lens?

Nick Shaw  12:29  
When we there was a very specific moment, where I kind of made a little bit of a that in that, that inflection because because because as you know, in the early days of, of grief, and in the aftermath of this kind of loss, you're you're devastated, you're you go to some very dark places, I know I did. And, you know, for me, I think a big part of what happened in me when William died was I was cracked open, like, so everything about me who I was, the person was just exposed, it was just out there in front of me for me to either confront or sort of do something with or or not, you know, I kind of I kind of liken it to the soupy mess of rawness that, you know, it was there. And I initially I didn't want anything to do with that. I didn't want to confront who I was, as a person, I didn't want to, I didn't want to deal with any of it. But what happens when you when you try to push that stuff away, when it when it's basically begging to be attended to it just comes back at you very, in a very forceful and negative way. And so and the more I would fight the dark and darker place, I will go and there was one day specifically where I, you know, I, I was in a very, very dark place. And I lost all hope. And I was considering some pretty dark options, to be honest with you. But as I was just as I was going to that place, it's kind of in the back of my mind, from my subconscious or whatever, you know, there was sort of something was something distracting me there was something starting to emerge a light, a notion started to kind of be present. And so I started focusing on that. And as I started to focus more on that I kind of came up with a mantra, which is what would we really want? What would Willie want? For me for our family? He certainly wouldn't want me to do something stupid and harm myself and create more suffering for it not only for myself, but for my wife and my younger son Kai. And so in that moment, I realized, you know, how I how I behave, how I show up what my attitudes are with everything that happened, will either honor or dishonor William, it will honor or dishonor this event that happened to William and to our family. And so I just in that moment, I was like I it was clear what I had to do. I was not going to do something with dishonor, who He was, or his legacy and that that was the sort of shift for me that said, Okay, we got we got to we got to do this in a different way.

Brian Smith  15:07  
Yeah, yeah, I think that's really important. You know, what, what would really want? Because, you know, there's, again, especially with parents, when we, when we lose, I find very common, there's this feeling of guilt. There's I, what could I have done differently to prevent this? The survivor's guilt, you know, it's not fair that I'm here, and they're not. And that can cause people to say, Okay, I need to stay in this very dark place, because I deserve it. I deserve this punishment. So did you go through any of that?

Nick Shaw  15:42  
Yes. Short answer is yes. Because I was with him. Yeah, it was me and him skiing down to the bottom of the mountains. I was with him. So I had tremendous guilt. I mean, I was with him, you know, I, I should have prevented it, right. And there's a couple of things that, that helped me with that guilt. I think the first thing that really was quite an amazing thing that happened was, so I was with William. And then when the search ensued, eventually they found him and they brought him to this little ski patrol clinic at the bottom mountain. So I was I was brought there and was waiting there for them to bring him in. And they were going to try to treat him. And so I was there alone. And my wife was still looking for him. She thought maybe he somehow skied back to the place we were staying. So she wasn't there yet. And I found out the doctor came out and shared the news with me. And so there was probably time is murky, but let's call it 1015 minutes between I heard the news and my wife is, you know, she was on Route, we would arrive there. And so when we first saw each other, I didn't want to tell her over the phone, what you know what the outcome was. And so I told her when she came into the clinic. And as you would expect, she broke down, which is obviously totally normal reaction. But as she stood up and sort of composed herself, she looked me in the eye, and she said, It's not your fault. And I can't tell you how much of a relief that was for me because I was just tearing myself apart. And that was just a momentary relief to know, okay, at least I know, she, she believes that now, that gives me a little bit of reprieve not that it didn't my guilt in in there. But it was, it was an open, it was a no brainer. I think the other the other thing that consumed me was, I didn't know how he died. So I there was a thought in my mind, you know, if I had found him, what I've been able to save him, right. And you know, you hear the stories of people doing superhuman things to save their kids. I went into the woods trying to find him, but I was just deep in snow and I couldn't move. So that was that was really causing a lot of questions for me as well. And so, but when we, when we eventually found, we got the coroner's report and found that he died on impact, that to get to at least I realized, okay, you know, there's nothing I could have done differently. And, you know, Brian, I've revisited that day 1000s of times. And, you know, I can honestly say, had that day would that to happen again, I there's nothing I would do differently. You know, we weren't he didn't die on this crazy challenging ski run, you died on a very simple, simple run. Be we skied on those kinds of runs many, many times. You know, we made a wrong turn, we weren't even supposed to be on that slope. So there's a lot of little things that happened. You know, we've all heard the butterfly effect that caused that outcome to happen. So I don't believe there's anything I could have done differently that day, or would have done differently, should that day occur again, it just things conspire to make that thing make that outcome happen. And you know, I kind of have a line in my book where I kind of got to a place where this was just meant to be, you know, which is not, which is crazy to hear myself say it in some respects, but it is what I believe. Yeah, yeah,

Brian Smith  19:17  
I appreciate you sharing that. And I hesitate to take you through that again. But I think it's really important for people that are listening because, again, parents, I think almost universally feel some sense of guilt. In your case, you were there. And but other parents feel guilty because they weren't there. They might feel guilty because your child died of a drug overdose and I should have been able to stop them or their child took their own life and I should have known it was coming. It's almost universal that parents find a way to blame themselves and I think it helps. We hear other people share their guilt to realize how silly our guilt is. Because I was my daughter, you know she had rheumatoid arthritis. It's never give her these injections injection a couple of days before. So I thought what did I do something wrong? You know, when I gave her the the injection and we're, she had a she had a minor heart condition and we'd take him to a cardiologist Should I've taken over a different cardiologist said I have, you know, questioned him, you know, so we all go through it as I said we all unite and I talked to a mother, her daughter was killed in a drunk driving actor daughter was an adult she was she didn't even live with her. And I'll never forget, she said, I did seven things wrong that day. And I said seven. And she named them she named the seven things she did wrong that day. And I said you probably did those same seven things every day. Just like with you on that run. I mean, we don't know what's going to happen. And you talked about the butterfly effect. I think that's, it's that movie to me. It's so instructional in this idea. Like, if I had done something different, it would have turned out different.

Nick Shaw  20:51  
Yeah. Yeah, it's it it's, it's, it's the game of what if, right? What if I'd done this? Or what if that or, you know, I think what happens, what we what we why we do that, or at least this is sort of been my insight in processing everything, is it? Because if we can figure out how we might have done things differently, it gives us a bit of a false sense of control. Okay, well, the next time this happens, I'll be good. Well, it doesn't matter, because there's not going to be a next time. And the reality is that control is an illusion. I mean, you know, we, I did everything that day to try to, you know, to protect my son, you know, he was wearing a ski helmet, we were on easy slope, it was, you know, and things happen that are that are going to always going to be beyond our control. And I think unfortunately, we you know, that human nature has a yearning for control. That is that is less of a real thing than we realize.

Brian Smith  21:46  
Yeah. Well, yeah. And you're right, and it puts us to the catch 22 situation, because we do want that sense of control, because we think that way we can control our future or future. But then it also gives us the sense of guilt, because we said we were in control, and we and we allowed this to happen. Right? So it doesn't really solve anything. But we have to go through that phase, I think.

Nick Shaw  22:07  
Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's a part of the it's part of the grief process. And, and hopefully, people are able to come through because I know for many people they're not I mean, I Yeah, many people aren't able to get through it. And the guilt falls them around for the rest of their lives, which is not a not a great way to live.

Brian Smith  22:25  
Yeah. So you said you mentioned you went to grief counseling, was there anything you learned to grief counseling that helped but because you also mentioned this insight you had? It sounds like it almost came from within?

Nick Shaw  22:36  
I would say a lot of the I mean, yeah, I learned some, I think, the grief counselor, which he did, which was great, because she helped all of us learn how to express our emotions, you know, as a family with each other. And this is particularly helpful for me and for my son, because that six and then you know, and she turned seven, you know, how do you how do you process emotion? How do you express yourself in that way? I think that perspective, that was tremendously, tremendously helpful.

Brian Smith  23:09  
And so this, but the Insight were, you said, you said to yourself, Okay, what would Willie do? That, where do you think that came from?

Nick Shaw  23:22  
I think it came from him. You know, there's no other way to say it, but I think it came from him, you know, his energy, his Spirit, His love for me, for our family. It came from that, you know? Yeah, I don't think there's any other way to say it, to be honest with you, you know, you know, I believe he's still out there in the universe. It you know, in whatever beyond it exists, and he was just wanting for me. You know, what, what he wants for all of us, right, which is to continue to endure and to live our lives and not and not let this thing destroy us?

Brian Smith  24:08  
Yeah, well, that's my belief too. So I think that are, you know, beyond what would Willie what I would say, What does Willie went because I do believe that our children are still with us, and they're still involved in our lives. And you mentioned earlier that you think maybe this was destined, I think it was, and it's crazy for me to say that because I never believed that before shooting the past. I didn't believe I didn't believe in destination or soul planning or any of that type of stuff. But for me, it's the only thing that makes sense at this point in my life that this was this was destined to happen because, you know, what does happen? What what what happened is, you know, we can go through all the what, what ifs and we never know what the what ifs are but we do know what we have. We know where we are. And that's the one thing that we do know. Yes,

Nick Shaw  24:58  
yeah. And I think it's I think the process of grief, whether you whether you go to a place of spirituality or afterlife or whatever it looks like for each individual person, because I do believe grief is very unique. But it is about getting to a place of acceptance like this thing happened. And you cannot, you know, you have to get to a place where it happened. Now now what I what do I make of it? What choice do I have to to engage with the world given that this thing happened to me? So, yeah, I think acceptance to me is the, the hopeful destination for anyone who's who's who goes through something like this.

Brian Smith  25:40  
Yeah, well, I think I think we just said, No, I think all these other things, we go through the guilt and the anger, lots of those are ways of kind of I think avoiding just saying that this happened. Doesn't have to doesn't mean we have to like it.

Nick Shaw  25:56  
No, no, no, not at all. I mean, it's no, yeah, exactly. It doesn't we absolutely don't have to like it. But I think yeah, people think they think it's a good point you're making and people will think well, acceptance means. Yeah, liking it or being okay with it. You know, I'm not okay, that my son died. But I accepted. Yeah,

Brian Smith  26:15  
that's, that's a very important distinction, you know, because, and there's also did you go through, like, a que he's never going to fill in the blank, these things are never going to happen. And then the, you know, survivor's guilt that comes with that.

Nick Shaw  26:34  
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I think you long for all the moments you were hoping to have a cat can no longer have. Yeah. So you know, seeing him grow to become a man. Right. I mean, that would have been, I was really looking forward to seeing, you know, I mean, I think that's something that all parents look forward to seeing how their kids grow up and become adults, right. Just doing different things that we'd like to do together, skiing more together. I mean, that day, before the accident, when we went to the top of the mountain, he was skiing, like I've never seen him ski before. And as someone who grew up skiing, and for whom skiing is a passion, I was bursting with pride to see my son just crushing it on the mountain. You know, it was amazing, you know, and here we were doing a thing that we both love, and we love doing together. It was magical. I wanted more of those. But I at least got that one.

Brian Smith  27:32  
Yeah.

Nick Shaw  27:35  
Yeah, you long for what could have been, I think that will always be some somewhat present. And I get to see a little bit of what could have been in with his brothers. You know, with Kai and another part of the story, we decided to have another child and we're fortunate enough to be able to have another child and so our youngest son, Bodie was born a year and a half after William died. So I get to see it now with with Bodhi so.

Brian Smith  28:06  
Yeah, well, I think again, I want to let people know when we're talking about acceptance and stuff we're not saying again we don't have to like it. And you know, I still have those moments with my thinking about my daughter because she was 15 So what would have happened with high school graduation look like and you know, she wanted to be a veterinarian you know, would she have done that you know, so we do we do have those thoughts when you think of Willie today what image comes to your mind

Nick Shaw  28:39  
yeah, it's a it's a great question and I'm really weird I'm kind of pausing here is is a thought I recently had I still see him as my nine year old son. So this past December 20 was his birthday he would have turned 14 And I don't know why this this year was different because you know at 14 for boy you know, you're you're kind of now you're starting to become a man right? You're taller maybe your voice is getting deeper. Right So yeah, that for the first time I was like, Well, what would he look like at 14 but I just still picture him as you know who he was when he was nine? Yeah,

Brian Smith  29:23  
I think that's a hard thing when when someone passes as a child because there's there's this thing in the in the community a lot of times we'll say forever, fill in the blank forever nine forever 17 Forever 15 i get i For me personally, I don't see that anymore because I don't believe that the life and death they're not forever that age they still I think we when we cross over we still grow and evolve. That's what I've understood. So yeah, I do picture Shana at 15 A lot of times but also it's like okay, she would be a you know, a middle middle age but she'd be in her mid 20s At this point, you know, I also picked her her, you know that way?

Nick Shaw  30:06  
Yeah, I think it's, I mean, we're so used to experiencing people in their physical form, right. And so it's natural for us to go there. And obviously, it's harder to imagine, or even conceptualize what their what they are today, because it's beyond the realm of our experience, at least at this stage. Right. But I, I still try to engage with him. And but it's not it's not an A it's not in a physical form anymore. Right.

Brian Smith  30:38  
Yeah, the relationship is definitely different. But but the thing is I what I want people understand there's still there's still the relationship.

Nick Shaw  30:47  
Yes. I think a big part of grieving, or the grieving process is you is about getting to a place where you have a different relationship with the person you lost. You can't if you can't, the relationship you have, which is very physical, and you know, three dimensional, what are you gonna call it? It's no longer here, but it doesn't mean you can't have a different relationship with them. And I think part of the grieving process is trying to figure that out and figure out what does that relationship look like for you?

Brian Smith  31:14  
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what does it look like for you with Willie now? You said, you still? You I think you said you still try to connect with him? And what what way does that manifest? I'll

Nick Shaw  31:27  
often so I meditate. And oftentimes, no, you not every session of meditation, but there'll be times where I will just pose a question to him, I kind of view him as my teacher, you know, which, which is, which is, you know, the title of the book, my teacher, my son, you know, it's an expression that came to me sort of in the cup in the call the two or three weeks after William died, on who he was, and his experience, or my experience with him and the impact he had him and I realized he'd been teaching me since the day he was born. And I believe he, you know, he taught me in birth and life and death, and now continues to teach me in his new in his new form, so I view him very much as, as a teacher, a guide, you know, to help me navigate this life as best I can. Yeah.

Brian Smith  32:27  
So what what made you decide to put your experience into a book

Nick Shaw  32:37  
as you know, you go through a life changing experience experienced like losing a child, you you see life and differently, it automatically allows you to see life and form different perspectives about what it means to live a purposeful and meaningful life. And, you know, when William died it for me, I needed to make meaning out of it for me, meaning me, it meant I need to learn from it, how can I live my life differently? Because you lose a child and your mortality stares you in the face? Forever? And so how do we, how can we make this this life we have and again, meaningful and purposeful as possible? So I did a lot of reflecting and learn things and and I thought, you know, I want to share my learnings with anybody because, you know, hopefully, you know, hopefully, no one has to go through what I had to go through, but they can at least benefit from the learnings. And so that was the inspiration. And in my book, I you know, certainly it can help people who are going through a similar experience and grief but you know, people go through all all different types of challenges in life. And I think the lessons are applicable not just to grief, but to any challenge somebody faces in life. So I just wanted to put it out there and share it because I thought it could be helpful.

Brian Smith  33:58  
Yeah, I think it's I think it's great that you did put it out there and share it and the but I also find a lot of times people find it very cathartic, I think to to write to put their thoughts down, whether they actually even published them or not, you know, there's something about going through the process.

Nick Shaw  34:15  
Absolutely. You know, for me you know, I talked a little earlier about this notion of being cracked open and sort of with that having all my fears and insecurities and limiting beliefs and false and and all the crap all my baggage come back to me and, and the process of writing caused me to, to explore, examined and confront some of those things and and try to live differently. And I even say at the end of my book, I now have what I know, at least for me are a set of guiding principles for how I aspire to live my life. And I say a sparks I'm not there yet. But you know, I It's my aspiration. I want to continue to do the work to live In that way, because I believe it can, it will allow me to live my life in a better way. Yeah.

Brian Smith  35:05  
Well, as a coach, you're trained in all these things, right fears and limiting beliefs and all this and we walk people through it and we replay some of our own. Were there any things about yourself that surprised you? After Willie's passing that yours? Like, I didn't know, this was one of my things?

Nick Shaw  35:26  
No, actually, you know, it's unfortunate, right? Because, and maybe the surprising thing is, if I knew this all along, why haven't I done anything about it? So so no, I mean, a lot of the stuff that came up, I knew it was now just a time to just really say, Okay, is it you still want to carry this stuff around with you, you still live this narrative? So I think that was a surprising thing. And it was a bit of like, you know, okay, are you going to do this thing or not? Right? Because life is not, it's not forever. And you can continue living the way you want you have and living according to whatever story you have about who you are. But again, back to what we really want what he wants that for me, no, he would not want that for me. So that was I think one of the I think that to me was sort of a big aha, it's like, it's time it's time to let go of that stuff. A little a little bit of a, I'll share another story about William, which I think is important and was also quite, quite inspiring for me. When William was just shy of his eighth birthday. A wife takes the boys to a Unitarian Church, and they have great programming for kids. And we grapple with anxiety, he was in therapy, he just, you know, he, he wasn't at ease with himself. When he done the work he'd gone through therapy was getting, you could see him sort of loosening up and letting go of that. late, late, it was late 2017, right before his eighth birthday, they did an exercise where they asked the kids to declare mantra for themselves. And in bright red marker on a note card he wrote, be yourself. Oh, wow. Yeah. So there's the old soul, right? Like, a kid not even aged says I'm going to be mindset Be yourself, right? Guard, we actually have a frame. And he goes on to not just talk not just to declare, but actually live it because in the last year of life, he kind of came into his own and found his sense of style, what he liked what he didn't like, and it just, he was himself. And here, I look at myself, and my, you know, at the time, I was 44 when William died. And think about well, how, how have I been myself throughout my I'm sure I have in some respects, but I've let a lot of things get in the way of being myself. And so, you know, he was my model, like, you know, he he made that declaration, and he did it. So now I got to do the same thing. Yeah. And that's, that's a big part of another reason for writing the book. I think a lot of people have struggled with that. And, you know, I just want I want to help people not struggle with that. So,

Brian Smith  38:07  
yeah, well, that's a good, I think it's a really, really good point that we just hit on there. Because, you know, I asked you, did you have any surprises about the things you were carrying? And you're like, No, because you were aware of them? You're still carrying them? Right? So maybe what it was, what you learned, maybe was to live these things that you were aware of?

Nick Shaw  38:26  
I think that's right, yeah. It's, you don't have to accept it. And you have a choice, we all have a choice, which is to realize that we have a choice to either accept them or say, No, I'm gonna choose a different path. I'm not going to let my story be written for me by my history, I'm gonna I'm gonna let it be written by, you know, my heart and soul and who I am as a person. So, I think yeah, that was the aha moment, I think, for me, in processing everything, and even even writing the book, you know, the first iterations of it were, it was a good account of the story. But you know, through the editing process, I realized every round of editing I was opening myself up more and getting more of myself to the book being myself more in the context of the book and that you know, that was the first time I'd ever done that side of me that I buried a long time ago was allowed to come out in the book.

Brian Smith  39:22  
Yeah. And we talked a little bit about your coaching and how it how it changed your coaching. Did you have clients before that you still work with now that they noticed a change in your in your in your coaching?

Nick Shaw  39:37  
Um, good question. I No one's ever commented on it. And I do have a handful of clients who are still with me. It's a bit No one's ever said, Oh, my God, you're a different coach. But I just feel more at ease. I think I think when I'm engaging someone I I give myself more permission to go to places which were perhaps I wouldn't have gone previously.

Brian Smith  40:05  
Yeah, I think people, I think one of the things about coaches people want, they want you to be real, the word vulnerable used earlier, I think people want to know that you can relate to their struggles. And I know a lot of times, it's my daughter is a mental health counselor, and they teach them you know, leave yourself outside. This is not about you. You can't tell personal stories, you can't talk about what's going on with you. But I noticed my clients they crave that they want to know, what did what did you go through? How did you feel when when this happened to you? Because they want to, they want to know that all those feelings are having are acceptable.

Nick Shaw  40:40  
Yeah, I think that's I think that's, that's exactly right. And it's a relationship, which means, you know, each person has to bring themselves to the relationship for it to work. And I get in certain mental health settings, there's probably a reason not to bring yourself to the table. But I think coaching I've only found it to be helpful in when you do that. Yeah.

Brian Smith  41:08  
So where do you see your your five years out after after Willie's passing? And so how are you seeing your life evolving at this point?

Nick Shaw  41:23  
I think it's as I said before, it's really trying to put into practice. You know, the lessons that I learned and it's, you know, it's work. It's not it's not it's not a snap of fingers, because you learn a lesson, it's the application or the implementation of lesson. That's the hard part, right? Because we're combating habits and old ways of thinking and so so I think I think it's, it's for me, it's it's brought an intentionality to actively trying to do the work and practice things and reflect on how it's going. And I believe we all we're all works in progress. And I think this life we have is about developing ourselves as human beings and getting getting out from under our very noisy brains and, and things of that nature, our egos things, things like that. It's a journey, and I'm just on that journey. And I and I realize that and some days are hard and others, but it's, it's part of what I'm here to do.

Brian Smith  42:34  
Yeah. So when it comes to grief, and I think you mentioned this earlier. Um, you know, sometimes people ask me, like, okay, when is this going to be over? You know, when can I, when can I move on from this? Whenever I get back to the person I was before, you know, all those types of questions. So I don't know if you get those questions or not? Or how would you respond to that.

Nick Shaw  42:58  
So you will never be the same person you were before. First off, you know, I kind of look at it, and maybe you have had a similar experience. But I kind of have had two lives. Now I've had life. So before before, you know, before everything happened, so life up until the time Lane died. Now I have a completely new new life. It's a it's kind of how I my life has been bifurcated? Absolutely, I'm a different person, I will forever be changed by that, that event that day. And it's weird, because I can't see my life differently. I can't, like I can't, this is my life, this is what's happened this is. And I've just accepted that. So you're not going to be the same person because something of this magnitude will change you forever. That said, it doesn't it doesn't mean you have to walk around, you know, with, with a black cloud and rain over your head for the rest of your days. And I think that getting to that point of acceptance, hopefully will allow you to, to move forward. Yeah.

Brian Smith  44:03  
Well, that's that's a point that I think a good we need to emphasize. Because when people ask me that, when they're early in grief, what they what they were thinking is like, am I going to be like this for the rest of my life? Am I going in, you know, miserable and pain every day and not wanting to be here and still carrying the guilt? And I know, unfortunately, people who are like that 1015 years after their child has passed. And what I tell them is no, it doesn't have to be like that. You won't, you won't go back to who you were, but you can go forward. You don't have to stay where you are.

Nick Shaw  44:37  
Yes, no, and it's a great way to put it. You don't have to mean that is a that initial those initial days and weeks and months of grief are kind of it's it. They have to happen. It's just part of how you process it and it's just a way to it's a way for somebody to try to try to process and make sense of everything. Bob, and it's and to your point, it doesn't have to be that way forever. Now, it can be if you if you let it run wild, you know, I'll share a story. We, my wife and I were looking for different grief groups, and we found one in our town next next door to ours. And that night, there's only two other people. And so it was and it was a it was a grief group for for for people who lost children. And the original moderator wasn't there because he was sick. So one of the attendees was the moderator. And he was an older gentleman probably in his, I don't know, call it mid 60s or something. And he lost his daughter like 2025 years ago. And he said something that just just fear of godness, which was, he said, I can honestly, there's never been a day in my life since my daughter die, where I've been able to be happy. And I would my wife and I looked at each other. And we're like, mean, this is like, you know, maybe a month after William that we're like, no way like that can't be like that. That is not how we're going to do this thing. So it was hard to hear. But it's also we had a we had a model, we didn't want her we didn't want to come through this. So you have a choice. It's and it's in. And there's a time to make that choice. And it's not in those early days of grief. I think one of the things that's important that I think I learned, but probably the hard way is where you are where you are in grief. And particularly those early days, like you're going to be matched you're going to be it's just part of it. Don't judge it, let it be and then as time unfolds, you, you will hopefully move forward in a more positive way.

Brian Smith  46:37  
Yeah, you know, I had almost the exact same experience. It was probably it was only a month after Shayna had passed, and we went to a meeting at a church and there were probably 10 people there maybe, and I'll never forget this woman, her daughter passed like 10 years before. And she went to visit her grave like, I don't know, almost every day, she was just as miserable sending me as she was the day her daughter died. And by up to that point, I resolved that I was gonna be miserable for the rest of my life. I'm just like, that's what it's gonna be. Because I'm going to I'm going to honor Shane it by being miserable. I love her so much that I'm just going to be miserable. And people just have to accept it. And but when I looked at that woman, I was like, no, if I'm going to stay here, I can't live that way for the rest of my life. Because it's not fair to me. And it's not fair to the people around me. And my daughter would want that. So that was that was my wake up call. And so it's funny because there's an old saying you can either be a great example or a horrible warning. And this one was like a horrible warning. I

Nick Shaw  47:43  
mean, as tough as it was for both of us to see that it was I mean, thank God, we saw it, right. Yeah,

Brian Smith  47:47  
I'm grateful for her. I'm grateful because it woke me up. And here it is. Nine years later, I'm still like, okay, you don't want to go there. Yeah. And I tell my clients, it is a choice.

Nick Shaw  47:59  
Yeah, it absolutely is your choice. And I think the and I can relate to this notion of Yep, I'm okay being this miserable, because, at least for me, and I suspect it was a way for you. I associated not forgetting William as just always being sad about losing him. So for me, I had this sort of construct of if I stopped being sad, then I will forget who I am. And I don't want to lose them for a second time. Right. And I think that's where this you know, where it's, you got to get formed a new relationship, right, so that you don't have to, the only way you can relate to them is not by being in the depths of grief.

Brian Smith  48:37  
Yeah, I remember because like I said, Shayna was 15. And I was like, I've known people that seemed like they moved on, you know, I hate that phrase moved on. And I'm like, and I remember what someone said to me about moving. I'm like, I don't want to move on. i That's not even what I want. That's not in the realm of possibility. I liked the phrase move forward, because I moved forward with her. And it takes a while to get there because I thought I don't want to forget, like the way her voice was. I don't want to forget this. I don't want to forget that. And, you know, the first few, first few days when I didn't cry, you know, in the shower. I was like, Okay, what's going on here? You know, it's like, this isn't right. I should be crying every day. I should be miserable time. But that's that's not we don't have to do that. And it's not part of the design either.

Nick Shaw  49:26  
Yeah, I Yeah. It's it's, and I think it's something that everyone has to sort of figure out as they go through that process, right. Yeah. But you know, what I think I think, unfortunately, grief in the movies or whatever it's portrayed, is this forever. Your sobbing to no end. And so we have this sort of picture in our mind for how we should be when we're grieving. And even the literature on grief, it's like it painted as this very like, linear process, right? It does a huge disservice because everybody's gonna do it differently. And you don't have to necessarily be sobbing every day if that's not who you are. Right. So I think I went through I'm sure you did too, of just self judgment self. What's wrong with me? Why this Warner that brief? And yeah, it's it's, you're just you're just making the process of hiring there needs to be.

Brian Smith  50:19  
Yeah, well, we talked about acceptance, acceptance of the situation, but also acceptance of ourselves and acceptance of the process. Again, I talked to people, and almost universally, they're judging themselves, whether it's been three months or two years or five years, you know, I'll hear them say, I'm not where I'm not where I supposed to be. And I'm like, you're where you're right where you're supposed to be? Yeah, yeah, you're actually.

Nick Shaw  50:46  
Yeah, where are you supposed to be? Yeah, that's yeah.

Brian Smith  50:50  
So yeah, I think that's great that you know, with the book and with your, your speech, you're giving people basically permission to be who they are, you know, and understand these feelings are natural. You talked about going to a dark place. Again, if there's another thing I find is almost universal people. It's I was talking to a parent just the other day, and I hear this a lot. It's like, I wasn't thinking about really committing suicide. I wasn't really contemplating it, but I would think about it, you know, it's like, the thought would come to my mind, and wouldn't it be? And I'm like, and we're scared to say that a lot of times. It's like, Yeah, I think I think it's almost universal. I think a lot of parents go through that. Where it's like, we have that thought, and then we realize no, I'm not gonna do this to my family. I'm like, but the thought crosses our mind. And then people think, Okay, well, I must be going crazy, because I've never thought this before. Yeah,

Nick Shaw  51:39  
yeah. No, it's I think it's, it comes from a place of, you know, loss of hope. And there's also I know, for me, Potter was yearning to be with Liam. Yeah,

Brian Smith  51:51  
there is that that feeling? Like, yeah, your kid, you know, you want to be with your kid, we've always been with your kid, you plan to be with them for the rest of your life. And you're just like, you know, it's you're torn, right? Because you also have your same thing as me. You have another child here. And you have your wife here. So it's like, I can't be in both places.

Nick Shaw  52:12  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a it's an interesting topic as because and you don't hear a lot about it. Because I think just the having suicidal thoughts are, it's such a taboo thing, right? And there's an immediate association of you're going crazy, or you need to be on watch or whatever, whatever, whatever the stories are about it. But it is a real thought. It's I think it is a part of it, as you say, it's a common experience for a lot of parents who lose a child. And it doesn't doesn't mean you might even do it, but it's yeah, it's an engine that is not something that's ever really talked about that much in the grief space. Yeah,

Brian Smith  52:53  
I think it's a very natural thought if you just think again, we're as a parent, your job is to protect your child or your child's you know, a literal child, right. So you're like, I have to be there to have to be there to protect them. I've always been there to protect him. Yeah. So I think it's a very natural thought it doesn't mean we should act on it. And again, most people don't. But you know, there's your judge for even having the thought you know, no, don't don't think like that. So I like to let people know i It's I went through a lot of people I know a lot of people do. Yeah,

Nick Shaw  53:26  
yeah, I mean, I talk about it directly my book I mean, I share the whole everything I mean, it's an open it's an open book literally like of what what happened and what I experienced. So yeah,

Brian Smith  53:39  
well, um, so remind people of title of the book and where they can get it and where people can reach you.

Nick Shaw  53:46  
Yeah. So the book is called My teacher my son lessons on life loss and love. You can really buy it anywhere books are sold, it's on Amazon, you can get any the main the big bookstores, if you're adverse to your adverse to big box and want to want to shop local you can certainly order it in your in your local bookstore. You know, just just give them the title and they you know, the book, it's in the book distribute distribution network, so you get your local bookstore. If you want to learn more about me, I have a website called meet Nick shaw.com. I have blogs that I write that I share based on different experiences I've had different thoughts I any podcast I'm on I will put on my site. So yeah, if you want to learn more about me or reach out you can you can go to that site.

Brian Smith  54:36  
Awesome. are great. Nick was great to meet you today. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being so vulnerable and sharing your story. I know that helps a lot of people. We don't get a lot of fathers doing this. So I'm always grateful when I when I see a male across from me because I think again, men kind of need that permission to say you know, it's okay to share this. It's okay to have these feelings. So I appreciate what you're doing.

Nick Shaw  55:02  
Likewise, thank you, thank you for doing this important work and yeah, we need to get more men to, to, to express themselves and share what they're going through. It wasn't my original inclination, but I think the more we can do that it helps not only them but the rest of their family. So yeah, yeah.

Brian Smith  55:22  
Awesome. Have a great rest of your day.

Nick Shaw  55:24  
Yeah, you too, but

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