Revealing the Secrets of End-of-Life Care: Dr. Karen Wyatt's Inspiring Journey

0:11 Hi there, welcome to grief to growth podcast. Your host is Brian Smith, spiritual seeker, best selling author, grief survivor and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today. Hey, everybody, this is Brian Smith back with another episode of grief to growth. And I've got with me today Dr. Karen Wyatt. I'm going to read Karen's bio and then we're going to have a conversation like we always do.

2:50 Thank you, Brian. It's a pleasure to be here with you today. Thanks. I'm really looking forward to having this conversation. I just looked up your bio right before we got in the x you sent me a very short bio For the for the podcast, you're very modest. You've done a lot of really interesting things and fascinating things. But one of the questions I want to ask you off the top, I've talked to people who have been hospice nurses who have talked about the afterlife and what people experienced at the end of death. And I've seen a lot of nurses talk about that. But frankly, I haven't seen many doctors. So do you know if you have any idea why that might be? Well, I think a lot of times, it's amazing. But in medical school and medical training, we don't learn about death and dying as doctors and a lot of times I think doctors tend to avoid death because they don't feel comfortable with it. And they view the death of their patients as a failure. And so it's it's not something that they are comfortable with for the most part unless they're, unless they have received training in hospice. And so it's unfortunate because I think doctors would be able to provide much better care for the whole patient, if they could just embrace the end of life.

11:00 Yeah, you know, as you mentioned that it's really interesting that some listeners may know this, some may not know this, but a lot of times when people are coming close to the end of their physical life, they'll be visited by loved ones on the other side. And I've seen it with actually, both of my in laws, we'll talk about someone that just came to visit them. And it's almost always if not always someone who's already deceased. So it's not like they're just hallucinating because it's hardly ever anyone that's still on the side. And they'll say, they were just here. You just missed them. Yes, yes, I've seen it over and over again. Also, some patients tell me that they had gone somewhere else that they themselves had traveled somewhere else, and they came back from there and wanted to talk about it. So it was similar to a near death experience and talking about seeing lights and feeling love and how beautiful it was. And in every case for those patients, it was so reassuring. It took away any fear that they had and and it really help their families at least when we could talk about what was happening that this is a positive experience and your loved one is at peace now and feeling comfortable with with what's taking place because because they feel loved and they feel protected and secure. Yeah, so you saw that too, because I interviewed Deborah diamond, who's a medium who's volunteers a hospice, and she talked about this, like the patients are traveling back and forth, there between both worlds. So did you see that too? Yes, before for the first few years, I didn't quite know what was happening. It seemed clear to me, the patients were not there. They were in a comatose, state and unresponsive and I knew something's happening there somewhere. They're working on something. But it became clear when some of them were able to start talking about what they had experienced when they were in a coma. Some were able to become alert again and talk about it. And then I realized that this they definitely are there. It's as if they have

13:00 Have a foot in each realm and they're going back and forth. Yeah. And I've heard of, I call it terminal lucidity. I'm not that's a real term. We're not interested in that. Okay. Yeah. So tell me about that. Some patients who've been at comatose, perhaps for several days, will suddenly wake up, they become totally lucid. They might even sit up in bed and start talking normally and, and whereas they were completely debilitated before and unable to sit up or swallow and could barely talk. They suddenly have this surge of energy through them and they can talk. Sometimes they have messages that I found I just remember really clearly happening with one man when I was in the room and he sat up, looked at me and looked at his family, and he said, Don't say it if you don't mean it. And that's all he said. But that message was so powerful to me that it I actually took that with me wherever I went, and I

15:00 Think that we can explain that happening. A base. I mean, it hasn't really been studied thoroughly. Because those those events are rare enough. And so we don't know what's happening metabolically for the patient. But I really believe that it's something spiritual that science will have a hard time measuring and addressing and looking at so that's what I see. It's something that's beyond the physical realm and that's what makes it so hard for science to explain or even study. Yeah, cuz I think about like an Alzheimer's patients and I've heard that someone who's been nonverbal for a year or more, and we say it's because their brain is, you know, deteriorating or has the plaque or whatever it is, it's causing this and it's, so it's like that suddenly goes away right before they before they before they transpire. It's like It's like, like you said, almost like a boost of energy. I kind of view it as I look at the brain is kind of reducing valve that filters consciousness and it seems like that last burst. It's like the consciousness of Just kind of breaks through or breaks free of the brain or something. Yeah, I have, I have had this image in my mind as people die that the physical body begins to dissolve away and fade away in some ways so that the spiritual body becomes more and more evident and more and more powerful in a sense and so that we can not we can see it more but also hear hear from it like it's moving functions

21:00 really helpful? I think that's a great process. I hadn't heard that before. Yeah, I think he touched on the two key things. You know, I've heard it said that forgiveness is giving up all hope for a better past. So first of all, we have to accept what happened. But the idea of putting yourself in the other person's shoes that doesn't come naturally to most of us. But if that I like that idea of doing a dialogue or monologue or dialogue from that person's perspective, because they're always two sides, every story. Yeah, and it's interesting writing it down is really helpful because sometimes in the process of writing, I think the subconscious Can, can come through and you might start writing down things that you never thought of yourself, you wouldn't think of consciously that the other person might think or feel about the situation. Yeah, when did you know when you talked about I think suicide in particular, but also just the fact of someone transitioning, I very used rarely to use the word die but some of leaving us right there. So they transition out of This life, a lot of times we carry anger to that for that person. And again, especially in the case of suicide, because it's like, How could you do this to me? And we don't think about maybe what they were going through. Yeah, that was very true for me in the case of my dad's suicide, and it took me a lot of years to even admit that I was angry at him because I, I felt bad about being angry, I was embarrassed that I was angry and ashamed. And so I hid that from myself, even for a number of years until I could look at that and and then allow myself to be angry at him. Like, it's okay. Like, he left my life and I had two little babies and he didn't see them grow up. And, you know, there was so much pain and so much loss and that it's alright for me to have the anger. And once I acknowledge that it was such a relief, and that's when I really could start moving forward toward actually actually healing it and beginning to recover. Yeah, you have to feel all those feelings.

23:30 Well, that's that the rational mind would say, Okay, well, I'm not supposed to be angry. But we all have emotions for you. We're human. And so I really liked that exercise you talked about, I think they I think it was a really too important case. I would hope everybody picked up on that because a lot of times, I've talked to so many people that struggle with forgiveness. I know I'm supposed to forgive, but I just can't, I just can't let this go and understand that we're doing it for ourselves. I think it's another important thing that to understand? Yeah, that it's actually one of the most beneficial things we can do for our health and it's amazing the weight that lifts off your shoulders, but also off your heart when you actually have forgiven someone, it really frees up your energy and to be more in the present moment because you're not keeping alive. Old anger and resentments from the past. And so it's it's a really worthwhile practice but knowing that it takes years like for me and my dad years of work for that to actually happen, but I could see it getting better and better over time. It's one of those things if you practice it becomes easier. And I've even heard people say you can learn to proactively forgive if you get if you get good enough at it, you can you can start letting go of things before they even happen. That's exactly that's exactly what I'm trying to do right now is I've decided I just don't want to add anything in

27:00 With the loss of control, and I've seen people behaving in very, very bad ways, blowing up over little things, and I think it's largely because of this loss of control. No, I haven't had to do this before. Why do I have to do this now? Sadly, yeah. Yeah, I think that's one of the things that we do when we when we've lost control in so many areas, we find whatever areas we can have some sort of control, even if it's not rational, it doesn't make sense, right? act out in, in those ways, simply simply just to give ourselves a feeling of still being empowered, I think, because it's very uncomfortable to feel out of control. It's frightening. But usually, I would say, you have to find a new locus of control and that the control that you do have is over your own behavior and your own attitudes, and even how you choose to cope with what's happening. Can you do self care, practice?

28:10 Yeah, that's, you know, I think we've been conditioned to take control of our lives, and to go out there and to make things happen. So a lot of us feel frustrated when we can't do that. But you made another excellent point. Let's take control over things we can take control over. So what can I can I start a meditation practice? Can I start to take better care of myself? Can I decide how I'm going to look at this? How am I going to react to this? And that's those are all things that we can control? Yeah, yeah, definitely. And so I think that that's, that's something to focus on every day. And we get overwhelmed easily by all the things that that we don't have control over. And it's actually it's sad and it's really hard, but at the same time, we're being invited into this new space.

29:00 of

31:00 www grief to growth com www dot g ri e f the number two gr o w th calm or text growth gr o w th 231996. If you'd like to support this podcast visit www.patreon.com slash grief to growth www.ptreon.com slash g ri EF the number two gr o w th to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to grow. Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting because I've interviewed a lot of people who have had near death experiences and one of its universal everyone comes back. Like they have different lessons and there's about there's about 10 that are pretty, you know, pretty standard. But the number one lessons always love and it's kind of like what you said, Well, it seems kind of trite to talk about love but that's really what it's all about.

33:00 really do need to spend a little time every day, intentionally looking within and really trying to work on ourselves in a spiritual way. And so, so I something like yoga or meditation or journaling, just a practice that we give a little time, even 15 minutes a day to, so that we're always tuning in with ourselves and looking within and working on growing to be the best people we can be. And then Some point and and once we accept it and stop resisting that, I think that also helps us to view each moment that we have here as precious and to be able to make the most of our time. It's none of us knows how much time we have, we really don't know how long we'll be here. Right? Well, you know, that's another difficult thing for us. I think it's, you know, it's interesting, our culture, you know, they, they, it's kind of taught us to hold on everything, you know, and grab everything and get it while you're here. And, you know, hold on to your youth, but I'm getting to the age where I'll be 60 next year. And you know, I see people trying to hold on to being 35 or being 40 and people are doing everything they possibly can to keep our bodies young and it's you're you're fighting it's father time. So there's I think there's there's a general denial of the fact that everything in this earth passes through.

34:58 Yes, definitely.

37:00 All you see is that is a hard stop your last breath. And that's it and there's nothing there, you're headed for a brick wall. I think I feel sorry for those people I really do. And I hope this is why I do what I do. Because I want to give everybody the hope, whether it's, you know, faith based or based on science or based on philosophy or based on whatever to understand what we really are as human beings. And you talked about that practice and I think it's twofold. I think it's one to steal against those things that are coming up to give us make us stronger so we can endure those things and, and grow through them. But also to everyday to remember that this is not all the rest. What I see around me is not all there is what I see is my body. This is this is not me. I think that's a very important practice to say, you know, my look in the mirror, my body is getting older, but it's just my body. It's not, it's not who I am. Oh, exactly, exactly. In my book I write I call it the taking the galaxy view, which I got from Edgar Mitchell.

38:00 started the Institute of noetic Sciences, which was an astronaut. And he described looking down on Earth from being in a spaceship orbiting, and the tininess of the earth, compared to the vastness of the universe made him realize, you know, all the problems that I find in my physical life on Earth are just so tiny. And there's something so much, so much greater going on here than that. And he said, it changed his perspective forever. And so, so I write about trying to take that the galaxy view from the higher view always of what we're going through and realizing, on a physical level alone, this is hard, and it's challenging, but there's also something so much greater going on in the universe. And this is just a little blip in in that eternity and in all the time that's there. The time in which I'm growing spiritually and my soul is developing. Yeah, well That's what the the people in the in the ears tell us, right? They tell us that, you know, despite all that what looks to be chaotic, but looks to be terrible, it looks to be tragic. There's actually an order, there's actually a beauty to everything that you're going through. So that's the only place where I kind of ask people have faith is like, you know, have faith in that, that everything's going to be okay. And it really can just, it doesn't take the problems away, but it makes them seem not so overwhelming. And yeah, definitely. And one of the things I mean, I suggest to people, to not be afraid of being around death, if they have that opportunity, if they have a loved one, even if it's a distant relative who's dying, they're able to go and be there and sit with that person or somehow participate, that being close to someone who's in that space, that kind of liminal space between the two worlds. I think that's

40:23 interesting. You say that cuz I had I started off with a really big fear of death and had it most of my life. And so when I think about being someone who's dying, I've actually stayed away from like, when my grandmother passed away, I was in my early 20s. And, and I just could not be there when it happened. So that's interesting to tell people to it, but we talked too early. We have to lean into things that scare us, I think, I think so. It's a good thing to maybe try to work yourself up towards. Yeah, yeah, exactly. When my mother died, I took care of her in her home in the last days of her life, and my older brother was not able to to come and see her I, I really wanted him to come. I mean, he, he actually he poked his head in for a few minutes and left right away. He couldn't be there. But interestingly, five years after that his daughter died of breast cancer. And he was with her the entire time. And so I felt like maybe experiencing we can get comfortable with it as we go. Yeah. So how do we help an elderly parent or somebody, how do we help them prepare for end of life, especially if it's someone that doesn't really like to think about that or talk about that?

41:52 Yeah, one of the things one of the things that has worked really well for me with my mom and I and I recommend it to other people.

44:00 You know, making their transition. Because again, I think a lot of us still have this, this.

47:00 Grew up having had, you know, an elderly grandparent died at home and having experienced it and witnessed it. And we're so removed from it. When, in the past, most people died in hospitals now more people are dying at home because we've consciously made a shift that direction. But also, funerals are always outside of the home and away from us. And so, so we can distance ourselves as much as we want. Seeing in our society makes it easy for us, but so much to our detriment, because as you said, it's something all of us are going to experience. It's inevitable and universal. And it's very sad that we go through life not being prepared for the one thing that we can count on is going to happen. Yeah, I think goes back to that looking at it as the end and nobody wants to face the end. So if we can start to look beyond that horizon, I think that makes all the difference in the world. I also think

51:00 And it's something I go through with a lot of my clients because that that first really big grief event, you know that the one that really just hits you right in the core. A lot of people like you said, we were always looking for we're always looking to go back to normal, what we're going through right now, the changes we're going through, why can't we just get back to the way things were. And we have to understand that that's not the way life is designed. We're not just we're not designed to go out and that's a good thing we can we can become a better version of ourselves. So I try to tell people, it's like, well, you're not going to be the person that you were. But you can be a better version of the person that you are you can you can use this to motivate yourself. Exactly. It took me so many years to realize that part because I didn't have a grief counselor like you. Tell me, you know, to help me see that I had to figure that out over a long time. But I realized as you said right now today, what we're going through with the pandemic, that's exactly where all of us are. Most people are starting are counting the days until life will go back to exactly where it was before.

52:00 This all began. But But that isn't really what it's about, like an event this big that involves up the entire planet. It's meant to change us all. And that's what we have to look toward is, how is this changing me and shaping me? And how is this going to help me become, as you said a better version of myself? Yeah, that's the that's one of the keys. I think of the spiritual practice. We talked about it as looking forward to, to, to making ourselves into a better person and to really understanding that we're here to expand and to grow. And and that's a desire that clinging on to who I was when I was 25. You know, if you're 75 you're the same person you were when you were 25. I think you've missed the whole point of life. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, one of the things that I also think about just is I think of life as a classroom, and think of the fact that I came here for the purpose of learning as much as I can learn

54:00 I'm just like you. And I had an event that happened to me literally just yesterday. And it really, you know, set me back, my wife was laid off from her job. So we've gotten to this COVID thing, she works in the healthcare field, and we kept cutting her hours and cutting her hours and finally told yesterday, we're not coming back. So I'm lying their bed last night, and I'm thinking, Oh, this is terrible. How is this going to work out? What are we gonna do for insurance also? And then, you know, it takes a little while. I mean, it's like, the shift is immediate. But then I'm like, but what's going to come next? You know, what's gonna happen next? Maybe something better will come along. It's always worked out before. And what am I supposed to learn from this? You know, and here I am advising people on how to do this thing, right? So what what am I going to do with it? So, you know, you make that shift, that shifted perspective, that we're all human and we it doesn't allow us to bypass the feelings, we still have the fear and we still have to live with, you know, all the limit limitations of being human. But we can quickly kind of shift to what's the higher perspective Yeah.

55:00 Exactly. And I think another important thing that I had to learn too is not to compare my journey with anyone else's journey. And I see that a lot. With my daughter talking to her, she'll always call and say, but this person had this workout and it was so much easier for her and why did it go that way for her? And I said, Well, she's in a different classroom, she's taking a different course right now.

59:21 can we choose love and not sinking to fear? Yeah, well, it's a challenge. But as you said, it's really interesting to see because I'm curious where we're going to end up in a year or two. You know, what, what changes will we see because of what we're going through. So I gave your website earlier your it was the Karen white MD calm, but also they have a website for your podcast. So tell me about your podcast. Yeah, I started a podcast, the whole the inner interviews I started doing seven years ago with basically people who work in any aspect of end of life care. And partly for me because I wanted to learn things and I wanted to share This, it's really fascinating to talk to you and to listen to you and hear you know what you've learned and the lessons that you put into the book, which I want to read again, it's seven lessons for seven lessons for living from the dying by Dr. Karen Wyatt, MD. Karen, it's been really great getting to know you and have you on grief to growth is anything you want to say before before we wrap up today.

1:01:00 I think mainly for people to just remember what we were talking about that it's, it's really about love. If you can keep it simple in everyday just just think of that. Just remember to try to be more loving. I think we'll get through this all together. That's awesome. Thank you very much, Karen, you have a great day. Thanks, Brian. Well, I hope you enjoyed the episode, I want to make it really easy for you to reach me. So just send me a text 231996 and simply text the word growth gr o w th. In fact you can right now just say hey Siri, send the message. 231996 and when Siri asked you what you want to send, just say growth. You can do the same thing with Okay, Google. Thanks a lot. Have a wonderful day. Thanks for listening to grief to growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and we'll come back for future episodes. Brian's best selling book grief to growth planted not buried is a question resource for anyone who is coping with grief or know someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are three things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com slash grief to growth. That's pa t ar e o n.com. Slash grief, the number to growth and sign up to make a small monthly donation. patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to grow. For more about Brian and grief to growth, visit www grief to growth calm