Grief, Faith, and Suicide Loss: When Belief Is Shaken and Hope Feels Impossible- with Rachel Powell | EP 469

WEBVTT

00:00:51.299 --> 00:00:53.140
Close your eyes and imagine.

00:00:54.619 --> 00:01:00.579
What if the things in life that cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges.

00:01:02.259 --> 00:01:07.180
Challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be.

00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:13.219
We feel like we've been buried, but what if, like a seed, we've been planted?

00:01:14.340 --> 00:01:17.780
And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree.

00:01:18.900 --> 00:01:20.980
Now, open your eyes.

00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:23.479
Open your eyes to this way of viewing life.

00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:28.659
Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature.

00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:34.000
This is Grief to Growth, and I am your host, Brian Smith.

00:01:36.039 --> 00:01:37.620
Hey there, welcome to Grief to Growth.

00:01:37.759 --> 00:01:42.280
And whether you're tuning in for the first time you've been walking this journey with me for a while, I'm really glad you're here.

00:01:42.699 --> 00:01:46.519
My name is Brian Smith, and on this podcast we explore life's deepest questions.

00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:51.039
Who we are, why we're here, where we came from, and where we're going when this life ends.

00:01:51.740 --> 00:01:56.460
It's a space for reflection, for healing, and for finding purpose, even in the aftermath of loss.

00:01:57.199 --> 00:02:04.419
Today's guest is someone who's not only faced profound grief head-on, but she's turned her pain into purpose in the most courageous and compassionate way.

00:02:05.099 --> 00:02:07.060
Rachel Powell is the founder of Hope Speaker.

00:02:07.859 --> 00:02:11.219
She's an author, she's a speaker, and she's a widow.

00:02:11.219 --> 00:02:18.199
She's a widow coach, I should say, on a mission to help Christian widows reclaim hope and confidently create a future they can love again.

00:02:19.060 --> 00:02:29.699
After losing her young husband to suicide and surviving a suicide attempt herself, Rachel's journey of radical healing and rebuilding now lights the way for others navigating the darkest valleys of grief.

00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:39.080
She speaks with unflinching honesty about the hard stuff, about loss, mental health, faith struggles, and the quiet desperation that many don't talk about.

00:02:39.580 --> 00:02:42.240
But above all, she boldly shares hope.

00:02:42.780 --> 00:02:46.680
Her faith in Jesus is not just part of her message, it's the foundation of her mission.

00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:54.500
In today's episode, we're going to explore what grief looks like when you're a person of faith, and how that can shape or even complicate the healing process.

00:02:55.859 --> 00:03:01.679
We'll talk about spiritual struggles, the anger, the silence, the doubt that can arise after loss.

00:03:02.379 --> 00:03:05.719
We'll ask what it means to find purpose again while life as you knew it has been shattered.

00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:12.280
We'll also go deeper into suicide, both as a tragic loss and something many people quietly consider.

00:03:12.859 --> 00:03:14.859
How can we help someone who's feeling hopeless?

00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:17.859
What does faith say or not say about suicide?

00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:21.139
And how can we respond in a way that brings life, not shame?

00:03:21.739 --> 00:03:23.979
This is going to be a raw and redemptive conversation.

00:03:24.620 --> 00:03:31.719
One I believe will speak to the hearts of anyone who's ever loved deeply, lost deeply, or struggled to find meaning in the middle of it all.

00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:39.139
And after the episode, I invite you to head over to group2growth.substack.com, where I've written a companion article for this conversation.

00:03:39.819 --> 00:03:45.819
It's a great place to continue the dialogue, to leave a comment, to share your reflections, and to join the community that's for me there.

00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:48.879
So with that, let's get into today's episode with Rachel Powell.

00:03:50.659 --> 00:03:51.340
Hi there.

00:03:51.579 --> 00:03:52.719
I'm happy to be with you, Brian.

00:03:53.019 --> 00:03:53.879
Thanks for having me.

00:03:54.419 --> 00:03:54.819
Hi, Rachel.

00:03:55.039 --> 00:03:56.199
It's really great to have you here.

00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:56.979
Great to meet you.

00:03:57.340 --> 00:04:00.439
First of all, I want to say I'm sorry about the loss of your husband.

00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:02.479
Tell me about him.

00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:03.379
Yeah.

00:04:04.419 --> 00:04:06.539
André was an incredible person.

00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:09.979
We actually met way back in high school youth group.

00:04:10.819 --> 00:04:14.739
So we were about 16 or maybe even 15.

00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:22.079
And it turned out we went on the same mission trip to Guatemala right after we graduated high school.

00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:26.199
And we're going to university together here in Colorado.

00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:30.060
And we felt led by the Lord to Mary Young.

00:04:30.280 --> 00:04:31.439
We were married at 19.

00:04:32.340 --> 00:04:35.100
So we had a lot of growing up to do very quickly.

00:04:35.699 --> 00:04:39.780
And we also took on helping raise my nieces and nephew.

00:04:40.660 --> 00:04:45.980
My oldest niece was born when I was just 18.

00:04:45.980 --> 00:04:49.459
So we began helping with them right away.

00:04:49.620 --> 00:04:56.680
And he jumped into that and loved those kids in amazing ways as they then entered our home.

00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:59.579
And we were raising them as our own.

00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:02.199
André loved the Lord.

00:05:02.500 --> 00:05:03.280
He loved people.

00:05:03.500 --> 00:05:09.660
He had just an incredible ability to remember names and make people feel seen and loved.

00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:14.980
And he changed so many lives.

00:05:14.980 --> 00:05:18.120
We were married 11 and a half years to the day.

00:05:18.400 --> 00:05:24.480
And we had our nieces and nephew with us as well as one biological daughter who was one at the time.

00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:33.280
And if you don't mind, with as much or as little detail as you want to share, what happened with his passing?

00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:35.400
Were you aware that he was struggling?

00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:36.879
Yeah.

00:05:37.620 --> 00:05:44.220
So our story got really kind of crazy.

00:05:44.220 --> 00:05:50.180
Like, it reminds me of that picture of the frog in the boiling water.

00:05:50.640 --> 00:05:55.080
If you throw a frog in a pot of boiling water, it's going to jump out.

00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:59.800
But if you put it in lukewarm water and heat it up over time, you can boil.

00:06:00.220 --> 00:06:05.540
You can boil it where it doesn't realize as the changes are so subtle and progressive.

00:06:05.860 --> 00:06:09.660
And that was really what the last year of his life was.

00:06:09.660 --> 00:06:13.800
He had been, as I mentioned, such an amazing, incredible person.

00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:25.460
I mean, Andre, he was so humble and so teachable and so wanting to honor the Lord and love him while he was an incredible husband and father.

00:06:26.939 --> 00:06:35.939
And he had struggled with an addiction in the past that had actually, we were almost divorced a year and a half or two.

00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:37.420
And again, we were very young.

00:06:37.420 --> 00:06:40.240
We were able to work through those things.

00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:42.640
And he had years and years of sobriety.

00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:45.420
It was a wonderful time of our lives.

00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:50.620
We were very effective together with the kids and ministry in our church.

00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:53.740
And he went on to get his PhD in engineering.

00:06:53.740 --> 00:06:58.300
And I studied biomedical sciences and went to nursing school, became a nurse.

00:06:58.700 --> 00:07:00.560
Life was very full.

00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:09.720
And for whatever reason in that last year, maybe all of the pressures and the stresses, he started his own business, which he had always dreamed of doing.

00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:13.600
But that addiction resurfaced.

00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:19.060
And not only that, it began to escalate out of control.

00:07:19.379 --> 00:07:43.439
And for whatever reason, instead of doing what he had always done, which was to be very open to getting help and and hating that thing and wanting it out of his life, he began to become defensive of it and extremely angry at me for having boundaries that I was trying to navigate in that last year.

00:07:44.319 --> 00:08:10.760
So our story is very complex in that I found, as I've met and connected with a number of other widows, not only suicide widows, but those who maybe lost their husband in another way, but who had had a history of addiction or abusive behaviors that it really makes the grief very complex to try to navigate in the aftermath of losing them.

00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:15.760
Because in that last year, it was very crazy making.

00:08:15.760 --> 00:08:32.120
I mean, he just behind closed doors where just a few of us would see myself primarily one pastor who was involved a marriage counselor and maybe a couple of friends were seeing how extreme this was getting.

00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:37.240
He did become abusive in a number of ways, like definable abuse.

00:08:37.500 --> 00:08:56.379
And it was also very complicated navigating with our faith because our particular church at the time continued to tell me to submit and to give him grace when things were happening that I mean, he could have been arrested for that.

00:08:56.379 --> 00:08:59.200
There was really major things going on.

00:08:59.340 --> 00:09:09.480
And so there was so much confusion in our lives, again, because most people didn't see that when he was around family or other people even right up until the end.

00:09:09.580 --> 00:09:13.519
He could be his normal, joy-filled, loving self.

00:09:14.439 --> 00:09:25.879
But the issue that I was having with the addiction that was beginning to take over and put so much at risk, he had a lot of resentment and anger toward me for, which again, wasn't anything.

00:09:25.879 --> 00:09:27.139
Like who he was.

00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:32.218
So it was very confusing in that last year.

00:09:32.598 --> 00:09:51.659
And I was finding my voice to be able to have boundaries when I was a person who desperately wanted to honor the Lord and wanted to honor biblical roles and structures and authority as a way of submitting to the Lord.

00:09:51.659 --> 00:10:19.879
However, I really had to find my deepest connection with God and with the Holy Spirit and trust his ability to lead me as I was hearing things from my husband and from church leadership that were not actually biblically accurate or safe and things that put the sanctity of marriage above the safety and sanity of the people in it.

00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:32.179
So some of these disparities were really all coming to a head at the same time, and we lost him by suicide in June of 2019.

00:10:32.179 --> 00:10:50.360
And although he had mentioned during one marriage counseling session that he had named feelings of purposelessness and mentioned that he just wanted to go home to heaven.

00:10:52.339 --> 00:11:12.839
He had said, I worked my whole life so hard for all of these things in my business and now I'm not really, I don't really care about it and I'm just thinking of going home and in that one session that counselor said, you know, do we need to put a safety plan into place, like recognizing suicide as a risk?

00:11:12.839 --> 00:11:17.719
And Andre just said, no, I would never do that.

00:11:18.099 --> 00:11:42.539
I'm just really hurt and I'm really angry and most of all those marriage sessions were, I mean, he was very, very angry and he would be very, I guess it was a place to vent, but the marriage counselor would constantly, we would sit in these sessions and Andre would, I don't want to say rage, but rant very, very angrily and point his finger at me.

00:11:42.539 --> 00:11:52.579
And the marriage counselor would try to bring it back to a place of working through the addiction and also asking him, is there a place of redemption here?

00:11:52.719 --> 00:11:58.500
You know, a path we can get back on to try to bring healing to this.

00:11:58.719 --> 00:11:59.500
I hear that you're angry.

00:11:59.740 --> 00:12:02.819
I hear that you're hurting, but like, what now do we do with this?

00:12:02.959 --> 00:12:05.759
And we really struggle to get anywhere.

00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:10.519
When he had mentioned that, that was the only time and he again had said, no, I would never do that.

00:12:10.740 --> 00:12:12.860
And I, I guess I believed him.

00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:33.279
Now I know if anybody mentions suicide, whether overtly or more covertly, like they talk about not wanting to be alive, having no purpose, wishing they would go to sleep and never wake up again or go to heaven or talk about specific plans.

00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:38.240
I know now that is such a major red flag.

00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:44.079
It should never be and should never have been something that was brought up one time and then let go.

00:12:44.259 --> 00:12:46.519
Like it would never be addressed again.

00:12:46.719 --> 00:12:48.819
That was the only time he had ever mentioned it.

00:12:48.819 --> 00:12:55.179
I could tell that he seemed depressed behind closed doors.

00:12:55.839 --> 00:13:01.620
And I know now that depression in men can manifest as anger in a lot of cases.

00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:08.000
But that was that he mentioned that in March, and it was never brought up again.

00:13:08.139 --> 00:13:09.539
He never said anything like that again.

00:13:09.539 --> 00:13:13.459
And I truly believed he would just never do something like that.

00:13:13.659 --> 00:13:16.879
I hear that from so many suicide survivors.

00:13:17.139 --> 00:13:23.779
It's like I just truly, truly, deeply believed that that person would never, ever do something like that.

00:13:23.779 --> 00:13:32.059
And so when it happened, it was a complete, it was, it was a complete shock.

00:13:32.579 --> 00:13:41.379
Although, again, the water boiling over time, looking back in hindsight, you see these things that were very extreme.

00:13:43.219 --> 00:13:45.879
That I wish I had done more.

00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:58.240
I wish more had been done by people who were hearing my cries for help and some of the extreme things that were going on when he left that night, very angry with me.

00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:10.719
I was trying to have a discussion with him about the addiction and these boundaries we've been going through a program that was trying to help both someone struggling with the addiction and the spouse of the person.

00:14:12.439 --> 00:14:20.879
And he was not wanting to engage and, you know, face that and talk about what actually needed to happen.

00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:29.519
He was wanting to go about life as usual, but with these explosions of anger that would happen behind closed doors and the behaviors continuing and escalating.

00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:38.240
And when he left, I was very concerned, like something seemed so off and even dangerous.

00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.860
He had the shroud, like it's hard to describe.

00:14:41.019 --> 00:14:48.159
I've seen it in just a couple of pictures that I have of him before, where it's almost like you can see it in his eyes.

00:14:48.159 --> 00:15:01.519
But this was also coupled with something that was so like dangerous, like anger to a different level that I had seen him that way.

00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:11.519
And when he walked out of the house, I ran to the porch and I remember like feeling torn standing there because I knew something was majorly wrong.

00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:20.240
But we had little children again at the time, our youngest, so our kids were 13, 9, 3, and 1 in the house.

00:15:20.740 --> 00:15:21.879
I like couldn't leave them.

00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:24.779
And at the same point, I knew something was really wrong.

00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:31.399
I had to have because my last words were, Andre, don't do anything unsafe.

00:15:31.939 --> 00:15:32.839
You don't have to.

00:15:33.819 --> 00:15:40.519
And I had called my counselor after he left and I was like, I'm just worried like he's so angry.

00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:44.860
And she encouraged me at that time.

00:15:45.199 --> 00:15:46.759
It was the last time I ever saw him.

00:15:48.860 --> 00:15:52.019
And to be fair, she had no idea this was coming either.

00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:56.120
She was the one person, my own personal counselor.

00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:59.079
We had a marriage counselor and I had my own personal counselor.

00:15:59.179 --> 00:16:07.179
And she was the one voice that was like advocating on my behalf for safety.

00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:12.480
And I could see the picture a little more clearly, the craziness and the water coming to boiling.

00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:17.079
But even she had no idea that he would ever do something like this.

00:16:17.259 --> 00:16:19.500
So these words weren't talking about suicide.

00:16:19.719 --> 00:16:25.779
But she said about his choices, about this addiction, about our life together, about things that were coming to a head.

00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:30.319
She said, Rachel, Andre has to make decisions for his own life.

00:16:31.019 --> 00:16:33.639
Like he's going to make his own decisions.

00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:43.559
And I encourage you to give him to the Lord, take something to help you sleep if you need to, and try to rest.

00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:49.269
And he never came home.

00:16:51.990 --> 00:16:59.750
And I also knew from that shroud, that deep, there was something like dangerous underneath it.

00:17:01.189 --> 00:17:08.630
And I knew that because again, looking back, I was like, this is crazy making, how could I even do something like this and go to sleep?

00:17:08.630 --> 00:17:11.950
But at the time, it was normal in the chaos of what was happening.

00:17:12.110 --> 00:17:20.329
What I did was I locked our bedroom door because my thought was, you know, he could get it undone.

00:17:20.329 --> 00:17:26.589
But I knew if he comes back as angry with me as he left, I'm in trouble.

00:17:27.089 --> 00:17:31.809
Like, I feel like I need to hear the lock and the door to give me enough time.

00:17:31.990 --> 00:17:37.370
If he comes at me that I could get the covers off my legs to defend myself.

00:17:37.610 --> 00:17:43.390
Like, that was the point of where my mind was at with how things had been happening.

00:17:43.390 --> 00:17:45.170
And you look at it now, you're like, that's insane.

00:17:45.390 --> 00:17:47.450
Like, how could you ever be in that situation?

00:17:47.450 --> 00:18:07.289
But when things over time become so insane, and when you're in an environment where whether through faith, whether it's related to spiritual abuse or other forms of having your experience and your intuition invalidated.

00:18:07.950 --> 00:18:10.349
Having said for so long, like, I can't do this.

00:18:10.589 --> 00:18:11.368
I can't do this.

00:18:11.470 --> 00:18:12.230
I can't do this.

00:18:12.368 --> 00:18:14.230
But having those words mean nothing.

00:18:14.829 --> 00:18:23.289
You come to a place where you're living in something that is completely way beyond your capacity.

00:18:23.670 --> 00:18:25.170
And you've been doing it for so long.

00:18:25.369 --> 00:18:27.349
That's when these crazy things happen.

00:18:27.710 --> 00:18:29.369
And so it was tragic.

00:18:29.970 --> 00:18:31.250
And I was devastated.

00:18:32.190 --> 00:18:35.409
I, you know, he was very angry at me.

00:18:35.889 --> 00:18:38.409
And so therefore I blamed myself.

00:18:38.869 --> 00:18:40.509
I was blamed by other people.

00:18:42.190 --> 00:18:47.049
The guilt that suicide survivors already deal with is tremendous.

00:18:47.470 --> 00:18:51.309
Everybody is thinking, what, what could I have done differently?

00:18:51.750 --> 00:18:58.049
The last time I had seen them, if I had said something differently, for me, I was like, I shouldn't have had that discussion at night.

00:18:58.509 --> 00:19:00.049
I shouldn't have tried to have that discussion.

00:19:00.329 --> 00:19:01.430
I shouldn't have had it alone.

00:19:03.149 --> 00:19:05.970
The weight plus the anger.

00:19:06.750 --> 00:19:12.009
It's a whole different level of suicide loss.

00:19:12.230 --> 00:19:18.990
And when I've connected with other suicide widows who have had those dynamics, I have found that they actually are.

00:19:19.829 --> 00:19:22.889
They very, very rarely share anything publicly.

00:19:23.289 --> 00:19:34.109
I've connected with them through specific groups or through widow events, or they come to me because I'm more open about my story in messaging me and reaching out to me.

00:19:34.109 --> 00:19:38.769
And I'll get stories like my husband was all of these things.

00:19:38.990 --> 00:19:50.069
He, he choked me out and, and these things and like, I'll never tell my kids like I'm never going to tell anyone ever because they don't want him to be diminished.

00:19:50.069 --> 00:19:55.329
You know, like he was like two different people.

00:19:55.569 --> 00:19:59.049
Like he was this amazing person that everyone knew and loved.

00:19:59.389 --> 00:19:59.930
And that's true.

00:20:00.569 --> 00:20:03.789
And then there was this whole other thing going on.

00:20:04.789 --> 00:20:10.549
And when you lose them, you still want their memory in their life to be honored.

00:20:11.170 --> 00:20:18.629
And in people who navigate grief in that way, it feels like you're grieving two different people, depending on what memories you're thinking of.

00:20:18.629 --> 00:20:26.589
Like, oh my gosh, she was this incredible, amazing person, like, oh, and these awful, horrible, dark things that happened to you.

00:20:27.450 --> 00:20:28.869
It makes it very challenging.

00:20:29.230 --> 00:20:35.230
And I became so low in my own loss of him that I also struggled with suicide.

00:20:35.569 --> 00:20:37.769
And I attempted twice myself.

00:20:38.589 --> 00:20:55.930
So I understand both that suicide doesn't solve any problems, that it doesn't, it's, we like to say, it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

00:20:56.109 --> 00:21:00.029
It puts so much pain on the people that you love.

00:21:00.750 --> 00:21:02.089
It doesn't fix anything.

00:21:02.089 --> 00:21:06.029
I was a strong suicide prevention advocate from the time that he died.

00:21:06.329 --> 00:21:18.210
And yet, I myself was struggling so intensely that I also know the other side of what it's like to be in such unbearable pain, that it feels like you cannot keep going.

00:21:18.210 --> 00:21:30.009
And I had four children, complicated legal dynamics and family dynamics, and what I was receiving from other people and from the church about his loss.

00:21:30.950 --> 00:21:33.670
And I know what that's like as well.

00:21:34.069 --> 00:21:40.849
And so that's enabled me to be a strong voice in suicide prevention for people struggling because I get it.

00:21:41.149 --> 00:21:46.089
And it's not about the worth or value of other people around you.

00:21:47.049 --> 00:21:49.349
That person is not in their right mind.

00:21:49.710 --> 00:21:50.849
And I can attest to that.

00:21:51.089 --> 00:22:19.950
It's a very deep struggle with pain, that people have this transition of suicide in their own mind, from it being something you would never conceive of, something you would never do, to something you think about, to becoming a possibility, to becoming your only possibility, like your only solution to the only way out of this pain you're in.

00:22:20.109 --> 00:22:23.990
And that transition happens in a place in our brains.

00:22:24.369 --> 00:22:31.649
And it's hard for people to understand the struggle, but you're not in your right mind in that place.

00:22:31.970 --> 00:22:33.569
It's very dark.

00:22:34.409 --> 00:22:37.149
And so I grieve his pain.

00:22:37.889 --> 00:22:45.029
And I also grieve the pain of all that we were left with, and being a widow with four kids, and we went into the COVID pandemic.

00:22:45.829 --> 00:22:48.309
The whole world went in to themselves.

00:22:48.670 --> 00:22:52.930
I could not even, I wasn't allowed to get more than I think a gallon of milk at a time.

00:22:53.490 --> 00:22:54.809
I was homeschooling.

00:22:55.009 --> 00:22:57.670
I had four kids home all the time in our loss.

00:22:58.309 --> 00:23:03.769
And most of the world was focused on their own families when we needed help the most.

00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:07.629
It was an extremely trying time.

00:23:08.569 --> 00:23:24.970
And again, in the church community, I was involved in these very destructive and painful dynamics with the leadership continued.

00:23:25.690 --> 00:23:30.549
I led worship for the last time, three days before he passed away.

00:23:30.909 --> 00:23:39.230
I remember when I would practice for worship leading, it was almost like it reminds me in the Bible, when it talks about David playing the harp for Saul.

00:23:39.730 --> 00:23:41.109
It was very therapeutic.

00:23:41.509 --> 00:23:48.549
Even as angry as he might be with me, if I was doing worship practice, he would crack open his home office door.

00:23:50.750 --> 00:23:59.450
And yeah, it was soothing to have the Lord and have worship there in our home.

00:24:00.269 --> 00:24:02.990
And I did that the last time, three days before he passed away.

00:24:03.129 --> 00:24:09.529
Once he passed away, I was removed from worship leading and was not allowed to go back to that.

00:24:11.210 --> 00:24:16.809
I was told that they had concerns about my character, that I was not submissive.

00:24:17.789 --> 00:24:37.730
I had not been, in their words, up through that point when I was getting involved in another group that related to addiction and my own counselor and some of the boundaries I was drawing when they were telling me that I needed to submit, and I had found a voice for my own safety.

00:24:38.210 --> 00:24:52.269
So not only was I not protected, but I was actually, there were consequences in the aftermath, and again, at a time where I needed support the most, and a lot of people in that church were wonderful.

00:24:52.269 --> 00:24:59.009
It wasn't the entire church body, but in the time that we needed help the most, I was treated.

00:24:59.349 --> 00:25:00.769
I remember having meetings.

00:25:01.029 --> 00:25:04.009
I did not want to leave the church a disgruntled person.

00:25:04.430 --> 00:25:16.700
We would have meetings and meetings with these pastors.

00:25:16.700 --> 00:25:19.519
Like a wolf among the sheep.

00:25:20.379 --> 00:25:21.659
Like, I am the church.

00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:24.039
I am like this broken widow.

00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:25.259
What have I done?

00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:49.379
They had called a meeting with some of these same people without me there, and when the language was the same thing that my late husband had been saying when he was not well about me and being unsubmissive and all of these things, my counselor was like, you need to run and not walk from that church.

00:25:49.899 --> 00:25:53.480
And so that was another part of my journey.

00:25:54.220 --> 00:25:59.220
Suicide widow, the pandemic, I was searching for a church home with my kids.

00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:23.019
I remember having all four of them, including my little, I just turned two, trying to keep a little mask on her face and manage all of them and keeping masks on their face like going to other churches, trying to find another church community, which was so deeply important to me, very, very important for me to find the right place.

00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:26.700
So there was a lot of challenges along the way.

00:26:26.700 --> 00:26:38.099
And in my own struggle with hopelessness and loss, having attempted, I would not be here if the Lord had not intervened.

00:26:38.700 --> 00:26:42.859
And I can't answer, why did you do that for me and not for Andre?

00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:49.460
There's still so many questions that I don't have answers to.

00:26:49.460 --> 00:27:03.519
But what I do know is this journey of pain and suffering and grief and even compound losses.

00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:11.359
I was diagnosed with complicated grief, and that's a fitting term for what it was.

00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:22.779
That it wasn't truly, it was a battle, and the Lord was so faithful to help me in navigating this battle.

00:27:23.259 --> 00:27:27.519
It was really a battle within me and within my mind.

00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:43.159
And I found that even though like a bomb had gone off in my life, it felt like I was at ground zero and like sifting to the rubble and finding pieces of my life and not knowing like where to go.

00:27:43.180 --> 00:27:51.339
Where anything was or what was ahead or how to rebuild, there was still under that rubble, there was this foundation of hope under my feet.

00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:56.039
Like under my feet, the Lord Jesus Christ was a rock.

00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:00.740
And he was there.

00:28:00.740 --> 00:28:13.180
I remember praying and crying one of many nights and asking the Lord to cuddle me because that's how I used to ask my late husband to hold me.

00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:15.039
I would say, Andre, would you cuddle me?

00:28:16.539 --> 00:28:24.879
I remember the second night of being a widow, I just like was in, I remember, I think it was my parents house, it might have been my in-laws house.

00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:31.480
I was sleeping somewhere, it was my house, and I remember speaking those words into the darkness like, Andre, would you cuddle me?

00:28:31.480 --> 00:28:33.940
And there was like, no answer.

00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:38.240
And there was, you know, it was devastating.

00:28:38.779 --> 00:28:42.220
And the Lord cuddled me when I asked him to.

00:28:42.379 --> 00:28:45.000
Like I remember that embrace.

00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:59.579
And so through this journey, my relationship with God and my faith became so much more than one way, like it had mostly been one way, like one direction.

00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:19.619
And I think our faith, it's really important, all the things that have been emphasized to me about, you know, about the Bible and about having sound doctrine and theology and, and hermeneutics and apologetics and all of these things of like, how do we know our faith is true?

00:29:19.619 --> 00:29:25.000
What evidence is, is there for it in science and in history and in all of these areas?

00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:32.220
And, and what does it mean to read things within context of the whole Bible and all of this, all of this knowledge things, right?

00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:35.960
It's very, it's very important because it's a basis of why we can trust it.

00:29:36.299 --> 00:29:40.240
But so much in my life, it had just been that head knowledge, right?

00:29:40.579 --> 00:29:44.920
And they would talk about it in the church, like head knowledge versus heart knowledge.

00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:50.000
Head knowledge, how do we get it to our heart and how do we, you know, get it to our heart knowledge?

00:29:50.220 --> 00:30:10.819
And I think part of the reason we struggled with it so hard is because we cut our head off from our heart in the faith so much because we are teaching through all of our doctrine that emotions are bad and not to listen to our bodies.

00:30:10.819 --> 00:30:21.759
And, and, and the ways that we actually limit, like we see in the Bible, the Holy Spirit and God come in and like blow everybody's minds with new revelations, right?

00:30:21.819 --> 00:30:23.220
They're like, nope, that was just a shadow.

00:30:23.399 --> 00:30:24.240
There's like more here.

00:30:24.399 --> 00:30:25.139
This is what it's about.

00:30:25.460 --> 00:30:27.279
But then we think he doesn't do that anymore.

00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:40.119
And when it's all about the knowing and, and in my experience where the Christian faith equates sinfulness with our humanness.

00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:45.619
We, we cut our head off from our heart because that's not the same thing.

00:30:46.059 --> 00:30:49.639
Like sinfulness, flesh is not the same thing as being human.

00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:51.599
Like Jesus was fully human.

00:30:51.899 --> 00:30:54.539
He didn't come to save us from our humanity.

00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:56.579
That wouldn't have been good news.

00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:08.460
Like he, he came to save us from the corrupt flesh, but our, our emotions and, and so much that's a part of our experience.

00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:21.000
We limit in faith spaces in my experience because we're scared that we can't control it or what that will mean, or if it gets off from what the biblical word says.

00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:32.359
And in fact, that's been a huge part of this growth in my grief and in finding hope from my loss is that I can have an experiential relationship with the Lord.

00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:46.549
That's two directional where yes, I pray to him and I read and I speak things and I can, I can speak scripture and know things and I can hear back from the Lord.

00:31:47.329 --> 00:32:01.289
And when we're in places of deep pain and trauma, like we're in a part of our brain that all of the, the thinking knowledge prefrontal cortex isn't even online.

00:32:01.909 --> 00:32:09.869
When we're in those deep trauma spaces, you know, they're like, Oh, will you just, you know, speak the scripture and, and believe and have more faith in that fixes it.

00:32:09.930 --> 00:32:15.210
It's like, we're literally existing in a part of us where we can't talk ourselves out of it.

00:32:15.349 --> 00:32:18.970
So how does God meet us there in that experiential place?

00:32:18.970 --> 00:32:25.649
How does, how is he embodied with us in our pain, in our trauma, in our suffering?

00:32:25.869 --> 00:32:48.629
And so that was really the ground of such a, my roots going down deeper into hope that was still there under all the rubble and into rebuilding a beautiful life again that I can love and helping other widows do so.

00:32:48.629 --> 00:32:53.109
You know, and it's come from that battle that I've walked through myself.

00:32:54.809 --> 00:32:55.349
Yeah.

00:32:56.409 --> 00:32:57.470
Well, Rachel, I am.

00:32:58.349 --> 00:33:08.849
I'm just sitting here kind of flabbergasted by what you've had to go through, and I'm very sorry, because there's, there's a lot and I think your complicated brief doesn't begin to describe it.

00:33:09.769 --> 00:33:15.809
And there's a difference between religion and faith, as this is what I got as you were speaking earlier.

00:33:16.250 --> 00:33:23.409
It's just, it's amazing that you've been able to hold on to your faith, despite the religion that people are trying to put to put on you.

00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:07.359
The church, you know, turning you away in your, in your biggest time of need.

00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:12.039
Not, not recognizing your humanity and your relationship with your husband.

00:34:12.619 --> 00:34:13.139
That's all.

00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:20.079
I'm so sorry that you that you went through that and then I admire you for being able to hold on to your faith and come out of it.

00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:22.380
On the other side, you know, even stronger.

00:34:22.900 --> 00:34:26.480
You've got some really unique perspectives that you can help us with.

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:37.800
And one of the things I wanted to talk to you about, and you've already spoken about it, but the idea that faith or religion can soothe our grief, or can actually make it more complicated.

00:34:39.420 --> 00:34:41.759
And could you speak a little bit more about that?

00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:49.440
Yeah, well, one thing I want to mention, too, just to answer what you had said, religion versus faith.

00:34:49.759 --> 00:34:50.440
Yeah, I agree.

00:34:50.579 --> 00:34:52.500
I believe that religion is a lie.

00:34:52.500 --> 00:34:57.360
I believe that religion and religions are all manmade ways.

00:34:58.039 --> 00:35:14.739
And there are many of them that we have created to try to build a ladder or make our own steps up to God, up to deity, up to being good enough up to earning heaven to They're all stemming from our own ways and our own thoughts.

00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:30.119
And there's a whole myriad of different religions and different ideas about how we get there, or even that all of them lead to the same place, even when you look at them and they're saying things that are very, very opposed to one another, which logically doesn't make sense.

00:35:30.699 --> 00:35:32.639
But, yeah, I agree.

00:35:33.259 --> 00:35:35.420
Religion is a lie.

00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:39.219
Faith is about a relationship with God.

00:35:39.219 --> 00:35:52.878
And I believe the only way that we could have known who He is and what our purpose is, and anything of a greater, higher than what we could possibly know in our own self would have to be revealed by Him to us.

00:35:52.878 --> 00:36:10.878
And I believe that He's done that in the person of Jesus Christ, and again, that being so much more relational than about following the rules and making it about these things that we still make it about.

00:36:10.878 --> 00:36:13.699
How good of a wife are you?

00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:15.000
Are you submitting enough?

00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:33.579
And all of the ways that we do not empower male, female, everyone in the calling and mission and that power of the Lord in us, like our ability to hear from Him and to lead our lives forward.

00:36:33.739 --> 00:36:35.739
It just changes everything about our whole lives.

00:36:35.879 --> 00:36:37.139
It changes everything for widows.

00:36:38.599 --> 00:36:47.960
It changes everything because, particularly if they've had that dynamic, one thing I'd like to name, because I've encountered it with some of the widows that I've coached.

00:36:49.579 --> 00:36:56.699
If you have placed women in a place for so long where you tell them, you can't do that without a man.

00:36:57.099 --> 00:36:58.019
That's a man's life.

00:36:58.099 --> 00:36:59.619
You can't do that without a man.

00:36:59.759 --> 00:37:00.980
You can't do that without a man.

00:37:00.980 --> 00:37:05.579
And then all of a sudden, their husband's dead, and they have to do it all.

00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:21.400
You have set them up to fail so much more, because not only do they have to do all of these things that they've never had to do before and that their husband did, they have to step into things you've told them were bad and told them not to do.

00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:47.319
And there's so much confusion and fear and pain where if we are equipping women to know who they are in the Lord and how loved they are and the ways that He has equipped them to be part of the body, to share their gifting and to share what He's doing in and through them.

00:37:47.319 --> 00:38:01.239
If it's true, like in the New Testament where it says no part of the body can say to the other, I don't need you, and that the weakest parts of the body are indispensable to the rest, like if we really believe that it changes everything.

00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:16.960
So yes, religion versus faith and what that means has been so important because if each of us is connected to that and leading our life from that place, there's so much more power and there's so much more peace.

00:38:17.319 --> 00:38:31.779
Because, I mean, I would say that when my late husband would corner me, he would corner me with things and he would say, this is sin and you need to promise right now, you will never do this thing again.

00:38:31.940 --> 00:38:44.239
It was like having a boundary, and I had connected with that inside of me enough to be able to just say, even though I was scared, I didn't know what was happening.

00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:51.460
I would say, you know, the Holy Spirit is not convicting me of sin, like I cannot tell you that I'm doing something wrong.

00:38:51.940 --> 00:39:16.819
So it's empowering and it changes our ability to lead our life forward even after suffering, grief, loss, what we have been through that if we're tapping into and believing what He has to say about us and about our future, it helps us from getting stuck and to answer the part about grief and how that can make it complicated.

00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:37.759
I mean, my story's a lot of that, but how it helps is because where I think in a lot of grief spaces, what I also see is this, people have been through so much pain and suffering and they've lost hope in a lot of ways.

00:39:38.659 --> 00:40:00.759
And culturally, oftentimes, our pain is invalidated, right, by other people who either push you forward or tell you, you know, what their opinions are about what you should be doing or they give platitudes, whether that's religious or otherwise, we're not very good at coming alongside and companioning people in an empathetic way in their grief.

00:40:00.759 --> 00:40:20.799
And so people often will like hold on to their loss with these white knuckles and grief spaces can become a place of defensiveness and anger, even toward good things that are possible like hope and forward movement.

00:40:20.799 --> 00:40:34.500
And it's like, maybe for you, but there's not hope for me and or you talk about the possibilities ahead and rebuilding and it makes them angry instead of because they're holding on to the loss.

00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:40.559
And so I believe our faith can help us to loosen that.

00:40:41.579 --> 00:40:43.259
And so that we can have both.

00:40:44.420 --> 00:40:45.559
It's so important.

00:40:45.779 --> 00:41:01.619
And again, in my coaching and in my, my Christian widow community I have this is so important for me to have both that empathetic safe place to be real and raw and have grief companions who who get it, and you don't have to be all cleaned up, you can be real honest.

00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:16.659
And there's a willingness, there's an openness to all of the goodness here that's still ahead like the Lord says I, it says I will be confident of this.

00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:20.500
I will see your goodness in the land of the living.

00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:28.339
It's not that we're just here by any time till we die and we get to be with them, or that, you know, we're just suffering and enduring until we're dead.

00:41:28.339 --> 00:41:34.859
It's like, there is goodness here ahead of us like we, we didn't die when they died.

00:41:35.699 --> 00:41:44.339
Like part of us did, but but but again, that can be something that we like wrap ourselves in the grave clothes with them before we've even died.

00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:57.000
And I love where Jesus said to Lazarus after he rose, we said, take the grave clothes off of him and it's like, it's part of the message to widows too is like take the grave clothes off like your story isn't over yet.

00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:04.659
And your reality today isn't your forever reality and there's so much hope, still ahead.

00:42:05.359 --> 00:42:25.079
But we have to be open to those possibilities, or we will never walk in them we will never create them because we will always be over here, holding to just how bad it is and how you know we are victims of this pain and suffering that's unjust, and we'll get stuck there.

00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:35.239
And so, faith, and the Holy Spirit can help lead us forward gently, he comforts us says the Holy Spirit is a comforter.

00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:59.480
And he also gives us the power to walk forward with a hope, and a love and a life that just seems like that this world can understand because it comes from God that's what I want my life and my, my business, you know, to be a testament to that, like this can only happen through, through the Lord.

00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:14.259
He doesn't want us to stay to pitch a tent in the valley of the shadow of death and and camp there and stay there the rest of our lives like we, we have abundant things ahead of us if we keep going.

00:43:14.619 --> 00:43:18.839
And so, the Lord has helped me with that 100%.

00:43:18.839 --> 00:43:19.219
Yeah.

00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:29.279
Well again, you know it's interesting to me, because a lot of times when people go through what you went through with a particular church or religion or denomination or whatever.

00:43:29.279 --> 00:43:34.639
They'll walk away from the whole thing, just like I've done with Christianity, I'm done with, you know, religion, whatever.

00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:38.239
And you because you did hold on to this faith.

00:43:38.940 --> 00:43:45.099
You apparently found another another church home that that is more open, I guess I would say.

00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:50.079
Yes, yeah, I, I'm so thankful for the church I'm part of.

00:43:50.759 --> 00:44:21.159
I just want to say, as an encouragement to people who have suffered, you know, church hurt is such like a band a term in my opinion, but who have suffered church hurt who have been spiritually abused, who have had trauma and pain and woundedness in communities of faith, that there are safe churches out there, like one little story, that's a picture of this in my life.

00:44:22.420 --> 00:44:22.519
I.

00:44:23.379 --> 00:44:26.019
So when I became part of this community.

00:44:26.759 --> 00:44:42.019
In a matter of time I didn't advertise anything I didn't say through their own knowing of me, and where I was at when I was approached and asked if I could lead worship over there.

00:44:42.019 --> 00:45:04.759
And I was just like, like, don't you want to hear, I don't know, every dark thing that I've ever done like how do you know that I'm like, worthy or, you know, it was a completely different kind of environment in a relational way of love and grace that I hadn't experienced.

00:45:04.759 --> 00:45:45.359
I'm not saying there aren't, you know, characteristics that qualify leaders and I'm not saying that we shouldn't be excellent and skilled at the things that we do but there was not the same like that wasn't just a filter at my other church home it was like everything, you know, and my pastor himself has repeatedly, I've just had these experiences where I have been relationally wounded, I have experienced relational healing, like sitting with him, and like when I was nervous about starting to share my story more openly.

00:45:45.359 --> 00:45:53.619
For the first few years I did not talk about the bad things that had happened either, you know, in the church or with my husband or anything.

00:45:53.859 --> 00:46:02.460
And as I was, as the Lord was giving me this call to reach other people who were struggling with these things by being open and honest with my story.

00:46:02.659 --> 00:46:04.319
I was really nervous about that.

00:46:04.319 --> 00:46:08.179
And he like was so encouraging to me.

00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:10.759
I mean, he spoke words of life.

00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:13.480
He said, you know, you've been part of our community.

00:46:13.759 --> 00:46:20.500
This is what I see in you and your character and like our church is behind you.

00:46:20.500 --> 00:46:27.659
And I was like, what, like, what, I remember even something silly like my friend who was helping with a website.

00:46:28.059 --> 00:46:48.539
She's like what are some places you've done, like in the earliest versions of it speaking and blah I was like oh my church you know she's like oh okay so ask your, you know church if you can have their logo whatever and I was like, Oh no, like, I remember writing this email to the pastor and being like, Can I use the church logo on my website and inside.

00:46:49.319 --> 00:46:54.019
I was hearing the voices of all of this church leadership that was always.

00:46:54.019 --> 00:47:04.359
It was like, I always had a bad motivation or something like, I was always I was like, what if he thinks like, I'm trying to.

00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:26.119
I'm trying to blur the lines between church and business like what if he thinks I'm trying to take advantage of the church because I'm going to put it on my website what if he thinks I'm, I'm trying to make it all about me and I'm, I'm using or abusing and I like I mean I was like, genuine fear about it because for so long.

00:47:26.739 --> 00:47:28.839
I've been under people who constantly questioned.

00:47:29.759 --> 00:47:39.619
I mean when I in the aftermath of things with my husband when I was like trying to figure out what was going on I was told I was, I was using the God card and I was trying to get on stage to be in front of people.

00:47:39.619 --> 00:47:54.400
As like a devastated widow and I was like, Oh my gosh, like, those are the thoughts that are going through my head when I'm writing this other pastor it's like, assuming all of them are thinking the worst about you because that's what I had experienced.

00:47:55.139 --> 00:48:02.480
And so I was afraid to ask him about the logo and like I sent that email and he got back like in a few hours and it was like a sentence.

00:48:02.799 --> 00:48:08.239
He was like, Oh yeah, like we're behind you blessings like I was like, that's it.

00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:14.679
Like, you know, those, those experiences it seems so small but when you're in a safe and healing community.

00:48:15.299 --> 00:48:15.920
It's profound.

00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:37.579
So, I am thankful that through what I went through without invalidating other people's experience because I know people who have experienced spiritual abuse and been deeply deeply wounded, you know, don't appreciate the other platitudes like God wasn't the one who hurt you.

00:48:37.579 --> 00:48:42.119
So go back to church like I don't want to come across in that way.

00:48:42.759 --> 00:48:46.500
What I recognize is that through my story.

00:48:46.980 --> 00:49:07.559
Again, my actual connection with God that wasn't about the structure of the church was what got me through that was what he gave me the voice and held me and led me to a safe place and enabled me to lead my life as a widow.

00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:33.839
My family without a husband, my future without a husband and it was through God himself that he, that I found the help and the support and the confidence to be part of another church body like moving, leaving that church didn't disconnect me from God because my relationship with God is, is always there.

00:49:33.839 --> 00:49:48.239
However, I believe that Christ loves his bride, and that I'm to be part of and love a community and truly to not only be a blessing to others there but have been so blessed.

00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:58.359
I mean me and my family were able to be there for one another and really hard times when you can find a safe place and it's not a perfect church there's no such thing as that.

00:49:59.179 --> 00:50:01.299
But I am so thankful.

00:50:01.900 --> 00:50:21.739
Yes, that he led me and guided me to another community so there are safe people and places out there and it was so worth being connected, even though being connected in relationships allows us to be wounded.

00:50:22.579 --> 00:50:47.460
I believe life is all about relationships and God loves his people and continues to grow, all of us and that pastor, my current pastor is the one that married my new husband and I married a couple years ago and I've been part of that community.

00:50:47.460 --> 00:51:16.319
He's baptized, one of our kids, my stepdaughter moved here with him from another state and decided on her own she wanted to do that there's even through the hard things in the struggles there's these beautiful moments of faith and life that are happening there when I have engaged in that battle to not quit and to not give up and in fact it makes me think of this reminder I have a tattoo on my forearm.

00:51:16.960 --> 00:52:01.379
It says fight the good fight finish the race keep the faith and it's from second Timothy four seven and it's actually in my late husband's handwriting it was from a letter he had written me in the past and I needed that in front of me and I'm still have it in front of me that this life isn't unfortunately sitting in pool, I have a whole flotation devices with a nice drink in hand going down a lazy river like we were in a battle here, and it can be shocking when you or someone you love takes a hit from the enemy or when life has ended, you know it feels like too soon.

00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:28.900
But through this journey, recognizing like the Lord still going before me and leading me and me going forward with my kids, and I am I'm committed to staying and to fighting the good fight and finishing the race and keeping the faith and and bringing him glory because he's been so faithful and so good to me.

00:52:28.900 --> 00:52:46.000
Yeah, so I want to ask you, because I know you work in suicide prevention, and I, I'll be really frank with you I have mixed feelings about the term suicide prevention because it kind of implies that we can stop other people from doing what they're going to do.

00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:49.420
But I also believe that we need to do as much as we can.

00:52:50.139 --> 00:52:57.019
And you've got a very unique perspective, and that you, you saw Andre go through what he went through and and complete suicide.

00:52:57.900 --> 00:52:59.579
And you did what you could do.

00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:05.279
And then yourself, you know, and you know what it's like to be at that point so talk about that.

00:53:05.719 --> 00:53:13.879
I don't know that tension I guess between, you know, people are going to do what they can do what they're going to do, and we need to do as much as we can do to keep them here.

00:53:13.879 --> 00:53:17.879
I love that you bring this up Brian and I really really appreciate.

00:53:18.159 --> 00:53:59.619
I don't know if you hear this a lot but I really really appreciate you even naming the fact that it's what I would agree with a big stance that I have in this and what I bring and hope to bring in the future through through a book and through more talks and things that I do is that reality that I also agree with you I deeply believe suicide is primarily about us suicide prevention is primarily about us equipping people who are struggling, not about other people keeping someone from doing something.

00:53:59.619 --> 00:54:01.960
And I agree with you so.

00:54:02.759 --> 00:54:08.960
So, speaking to what we have a lot right now in our in our world and resources I don't think those things are bad.

00:54:09.619 --> 00:54:11.679
I, it makes a world of difference.

00:54:11.879 --> 00:54:12.400
Absolutely.

00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:16.500
If someone can be there for you in your time of need.

00:54:16.739 --> 00:54:28.759
I mean it can, it can change everything, it can save lives, you know, but a lot of our suicide prevention work right now is like, be nicer to each other.

00:54:28.759 --> 00:54:53.259
Right, like, you don't know if someone's struggling so be kinder, that's suicide prevention, and if you see someone struggling, like we have ways of responding to that and I'm all for that.

00:54:53.259 --> 00:55:12.679
And that is that is equipping the world around people who are dying by suicide to to support them better, you know, or saying, you know there's a there's a number you can call, and all of that can be helpful in a lot of ways, it saved lives and it continues to and that's great.

00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:30.599
Where I like to focus is helping people understand that you have the power in this battle to save your own life like suicide prevention.

00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:57.799
For me, and then what I hope to do more and more as I go forward is helping people understand like, I want to help you save your own life, like protect your own life, I think people need to understand how dangerous, what I call the black box of suicide, that that place in our brain, where that happens, that window I talked about where suicide goes from something you never do.

00:55:57.799 --> 00:56:00.420
I mean, you can't even explain it to a child hardly, right?

00:56:01.059 --> 00:56:04.199
Like, don't it doesn't even make sense, like suicide is like, what?

00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:10.420
And then to even when you're older, you're like, oh my gosh, that's terrible, that's sad, that's something I would never do.

00:56:10.799 --> 00:56:19.639
To that transition to that being something you think about to a possibility to the solution to your only way out like that happens somewhere.

00:56:19.799 --> 00:56:23.879
And if we if we can bring awareness and education to that.

00:56:23.879 --> 00:56:35.119
If people can really take ownership of keeping themselves out of that little black box in their brain, I believe we will save more lives.

00:56:35.839 --> 00:56:38.159
Because I've experienced it.

00:56:38.299 --> 00:56:42.980
And I believe that, that that place where that happens, it is so dangerous.

00:56:42.980 --> 00:56:44.900
It is so dangerous.

00:56:45.379 --> 00:56:49.259
And this isn't to shame anyone who's struggled, I have as well.

00:56:50.480 --> 00:57:07.900
But, but suicide, where we start thinking about it, you know, when I was low and struggling, those thoughts, like, gosh, this is so hard, it would be better if I, if it was just over, it would be better for other people.

00:57:08.460 --> 00:57:18.859
If I wasn't here, like I had the thought I was struggling so intensely, like, trying to get all of my kids the help they needed and be the best I could for them.

00:57:18.940 --> 00:57:25.319
And I have such a high standard in my own mind of like mothering and the love I want to give and I wasn't meeting it.

00:57:25.319 --> 00:57:38.799
And I'm like, Oh, look, I'm like hurting the people that I'm supposed to be here for anyway, like, it's better for them that I'm not here, all of these, like, all of these lies, right, where, where the word talks about taking your thoughts captive.

00:57:39.339 --> 00:57:48.799
And, and how, what is happening in our mind and with our thought is so, I mean, it isn't just a flippant.

00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:50.299
Yeah, take your thoughts captive.

00:57:50.539 --> 00:57:53.779
I mean, I'm talking like, again, I want people to understand we're talking about war.

00:57:53.779 --> 00:58:03.400
We're talking about death, where you have those thoughts, it can become for a lot of us and I've talked with a lot of other people who have struggled with suicidal thoughts.

00:58:04.579 --> 00:58:23.759
It's almost like this little compartment you go into that's like a place of, I don't know, we used it for comfort and relief, like, oh gosh, if I just, I don't even know if all of this is worth it, it would be better if I wasn't like we go to this place and think that it would be easier.

00:58:25.199 --> 00:58:30.219
We find some kind of consolation for ourselves.

00:58:30.500 --> 00:58:45.420
It's almost like, you know, we take these really dark thoughts and we take them like a weighted blanket and we just like pull them over ourselves and curl up in the fetal position and are like, oh yeah, like it's so hard and it's never going to change.

00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:52.259
And I'm like, we are in that space and we have to wage war on those thoughts.

00:58:52.420 --> 00:59:02.799
Like, I mean, I really had to come to the place where I was like, I am not going to freaking play and flirt with these thoughts anymore.

00:59:02.799 --> 00:59:09.699
Like I had been at the point I could hardly even, I could feel the weight physically, I would lay on the floor.

00:59:10.379 --> 00:59:21.679
I like remember one day, like pushing some strawberries at my two little girls because I had no energy to like get up and feed them and I laid on the floor the whole afternoon, I was thinking about ways of ending my life.

00:59:21.679 --> 00:59:24.359
I was like so low and so done.

00:59:24.699 --> 00:59:38.900
Like if we recognize that if we never went in that space and we never walked ourselves through those steps, we wouldn't get to the end, right?

00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:47.079
Like where you think about it and you make it like you put rose colored glasses on about it and there's a gun in your face.

00:59:47.079 --> 00:59:54.179
Like it's nothing to play with because every time I went into what I thought was a compartment, right?

00:59:54.319 --> 00:59:56.460
I go into that space, I'm like, I can control it.

00:59:56.940 --> 01:00:03.500
I just go to the space and I'm thinking about these things and then you know, you snap out of it and you go about the rest of your life.

01:00:03.500 --> 01:00:07.079
I have widow say, how could he have died by suicide?

01:00:07.539 --> 01:00:19.500
How could he, and they will find like search histories on his computer or things that's like ways that he was looking at passing away and then there's also like their retirement trip and stuff on there.

01:00:19.539 --> 01:00:22.339
They're like, how could he be planning to live and planning to die?

01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:23.719
Like, how can you do that?

01:00:23.759 --> 01:00:26.359
And I'm like, well, you go in and out of this box.

01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:28.099
Like you think you can control it.

01:00:28.099 --> 01:00:34.900
And the more time you spend there and then you start thinking about ways for you, like, how would I do that?

01:00:35.359 --> 01:00:42.940
How would I, and it's like, when we spend time in that box, it's like, I got this picture.

01:00:42.940 --> 01:00:47.699
It's like digging a very, very deep trench, like a slope.

01:00:48.559 --> 01:01:00.739
And every time you get in there and you take it like a blanket of comfort, or you think any of the practicals through, or you think about why, again, sometimes we get there from anger at other people.

01:01:00.739 --> 01:01:12.159
Well, if these other people would just, I can't live my life because of what this is or I feel like I'm a victim and I'm never going to have any control and it's never going to get any better.

01:01:12.500 --> 01:01:17.579
We are just like shoveling down deeper and deeper and deeper this hole.

01:01:17.799 --> 01:01:28.079
Anytime we spend in there and even, and with the enemy and his lies, and we like partner with him to dig this deep slope and to lubricate it up.

01:01:28.839 --> 01:01:50.839
And then when you are triggered, or you are so low that you enter this like actively suicidal phase, which research has shown, it's typically only hours, minutes to hours long, someday that really active suicidal phase could go longer than a day into multiple, but usually it's a pretty short window.

01:01:51.659 --> 01:02:00.739
You've been suicidal in the way you've spent time in that box, but when someone is going to act, that's a relatively short window.

01:02:00.980 --> 01:02:01.339
And guess what?

01:02:01.500 --> 01:02:12.460
When you go into that box and you slide down that really steep, slippery, lubricated slope, it got that way because of all the time that we had spent there before.

01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:16.579
Like someone doesn't just wake up one day without ever having a thought.

01:02:17.139 --> 01:02:18.219
That's the majority of the time.

01:02:18.859 --> 01:02:28.299
And becoming so low and thinking through a plan and carrying it all out in like an instant, it's like we thought we could control that space.

01:02:28.299 --> 01:02:49.670
We thought it was an isolated black box of suicide, but our brains and our bodies as we are, we are integrated beings, and that will seep through to everything, and it's not controllable.

01:02:50.309 --> 01:03:05.069
You can't control it except to take those thoughts captive as much as possible and getting help with where we have dug and paved and lubricated of coming to new spaces and fighting it.

01:03:05.069 --> 01:03:15.929
I remember it was such a battle, but I took it so seriously that when I heard thoughts and lies or had them, I would rebuke the enemy.

01:03:16.529 --> 01:03:18.029
I'm not a cursing person.

01:03:18.309 --> 01:03:20.069
I would be like, shut up, Satan.

01:03:20.509 --> 01:03:22.329
I am not going there.

01:03:22.469 --> 01:03:24.190
I'm not going there.

01:03:24.190 --> 01:03:32.609
And really letting other people in that can help, like having the light of some safe people who know.

01:03:33.710 --> 01:03:47.909
But our personal battle, if we can understand that we can prevent our own suicide, I think that that would change so much because it's so dangerous to play with.

01:03:47.909 --> 01:03:55.989
And when you get in that space, again, speaking from experience and you're in that active, like, I'm acting on it now.

01:03:56.210 --> 01:03:57.529
You are not in your right mind.

01:03:58.049 --> 01:04:00.389
You are not in your right mind at all.

01:04:01.210 --> 01:04:08.170
I remember distinctly like thinking of my husband, where he was and where he walked to and what he did.

01:04:08.769 --> 01:04:23.170
I was like, if our little girl had been out there, like if he had encountered her, you know, I'm like, oh my gosh, he would have like scooped her up and like brought her home and lived like he would have lived.

01:04:23.230 --> 01:04:27.489
You're so disconnected from it.

01:04:27.829 --> 01:04:38.609
And that's what I try to encourage people who have lost someone with, like it wasn't a reflection of you or that they didn't love you enough or of your worth or your value.

01:04:38.609 --> 01:04:44.089
Like, why wasn't I enough to keep them here or any, I'm like, they're not, they're not in their right mind.

01:04:44.289 --> 01:04:52.109
My second attempt, like, yeah, I'll just say trigger warning here.

01:04:52.730 --> 01:04:53.869
People wouldn't like to not listen.

01:04:53.869 --> 01:05:03.389
And I had no, this was not going to be a cry for help for me, like the way that I was going to go was going to go.

01:05:03.789 --> 01:05:05.670
I was in so much pain.

01:05:06.769 --> 01:05:13.869
And like my body knew, like my body knew what was coming, but my mind was just like completely, I was completely out of my own mind.

01:05:13.869 --> 01:05:18.190
I was like, numb, dead, dissociated.

01:05:19.609 --> 01:05:22.429
My body was like trembling and shaking.

01:05:23.289 --> 01:05:24.670
And like, I was vomiting.

01:05:25.150 --> 01:05:30.889
And I mean, like my body was freaking out because it's like every, like primal instinct.

01:05:31.170 --> 01:05:42.049
That's like, you know, if you're standing, say, in front of something dangerous, an animal or a vehicle or whatever, you're like, oh my gosh, move out of the way, you know, like our bodies want to live.

01:05:42.849 --> 01:05:43.489
Like it's in us.

01:05:43.489 --> 01:05:46.989
And it knew that I was like, overriding that.

01:05:47.409 --> 01:05:48.949
And it was freaking out.

01:05:49.210 --> 01:05:52.589
And I was like, sorry, I can't do this anymore.

01:05:53.489 --> 01:06:04.609
You're not, you're not in the space to be thinking through all of the things that are really true and really valuable.

01:06:04.609 --> 01:06:16.949
And, and that's my other piece of encouragement to people who are struggling, is that we, we feel like we're in a corner.

01:06:17.469 --> 01:06:20.250
Like, it's the only way out, right?

01:06:20.449 --> 01:06:22.889
It's like all of this life the way it is.

01:06:23.069 --> 01:06:25.629
And I just can't keep doing it this way.

01:06:26.129 --> 01:06:28.869
And the only way out is like this way.

01:06:28.869 --> 01:06:39.009
But I encourage people that that is like the most radical, extreme choice, right?

01:06:39.469 --> 01:06:43.869
I mean, it just is because we've gone into that box and been thinking about that.

01:06:44.129 --> 01:06:47.869
And we're not changing much often in our outward life.

01:06:47.869 --> 01:06:49.589
And so we're like, I can't keep living.

01:06:49.949 --> 01:06:50.569
This is my life.

01:06:50.609 --> 01:06:51.449
I can't keep doing this.

01:06:51.629 --> 01:06:52.429
So I'm out.

01:06:52.429 --> 01:07:00.509
And I'm like, you are worth every resource, every resource to stay alive and to heal.

01:07:01.250 --> 01:07:12.730
Like every bit of time, every bit of money, every effort, like what radical or extreme changes could be made before you go there.

01:07:13.710 --> 01:07:16.869
Like, where people think I can't stop working.

01:07:16.869 --> 01:07:18.869
I can't move.

01:07:18.889 --> 01:07:22.230
You know, I can't like, I can't go inpatient somewhere.

01:07:22.509 --> 01:07:24.049
I'm, what would that look like?

01:07:24.109 --> 01:07:25.449
What would people think of me?

01:07:25.750 --> 01:07:27.049
I have these responsibilities.

01:07:27.429 --> 01:07:31.989
And I'm like, but trying to, again, trying to put it together in a space outside of that box.

01:07:32.150 --> 01:07:34.049
I'm like, do you understand what happens when you're gone?

01:07:34.549 --> 01:07:36.029
Like, you did all of that.

01:07:36.369 --> 01:07:37.269
You did all of it.

01:07:37.409 --> 01:07:38.210
You stopped working.

01:07:38.589 --> 01:07:40.750
You, you know, you left everybody.

01:07:40.949 --> 01:07:41.569
You left everything.

01:07:41.750 --> 01:07:46.849
Like, there's so many even radical choices we could make to adjust our lives.

01:07:46.849 --> 01:07:53.750
For a time that is so worth it before we would choose to leave completely.

01:07:54.029 --> 01:07:58.690
And so I encourage people to really think through that, like they are worth it.

01:07:58.829 --> 01:08:06.369
Well, oh, we don't have the money to get me help, but to really for me to stop working and to get help to me.

01:08:06.369 --> 01:08:09.009
I'm like, what, what's going to happen when you go?

01:08:09.230 --> 01:08:13.589
Like they would have paid every bit of every dime for you to stay.

01:08:14.769 --> 01:08:20.289
So changing our thinking about that realm, yeah, is something I'm really passionate about.

01:08:21.569 --> 01:08:21.829
Well, thanks.

01:08:22.289 --> 01:08:27.470
Thanks so much, Rachel, for that, because I said I'm all in favor of suicide prevention.

01:08:28.150 --> 01:08:34.869
But I, on the other hand, I'm really concerned when people do lose some of the suicide that they take it on as a personal thing.

01:08:34.869 --> 01:08:41.670
You know, if I love them more, if I just seen this, or I just seen that, then then they would still be here.

01:08:42.109 --> 01:08:45.710
And then that that, you know, there's so much complication around this.

01:08:45.909 --> 01:08:51.670
So I just so greatly appreciate you being so so open with this.

01:08:51.670 --> 01:08:54.390
I think it's, you know, we talked before we got started.

01:08:54.470 --> 01:08:56.450
And I said, is there anything that you don't want to talk about?

01:08:56.570 --> 01:08:57.810
You said, No, I'm an open book.

01:08:58.370 --> 01:08:59.190
I appreciate that.

01:08:59.310 --> 01:09:04.910
I think that's very necessary, because we do we allow ourselves to suffer in silence.

01:09:05.530 --> 01:09:12.010
People have shame on both sides, whether they've been a suicide attempt, or they've lost someone to suicide.

01:09:12.430 --> 01:09:21.230
So, and you, I got to tell you, the best description I've ever heard of what it's like to be in that mind state, because we look at people that do that.

01:09:21.230 --> 01:09:23.850
And we, we, again, we eat more shame on them.

01:09:24.410 --> 01:09:27.970
They were weak, or they were selfish, or they were, you know, whatever.

01:09:28.950 --> 01:09:30.570
And it's just, it's not true.

01:09:30.630 --> 01:09:31.310
It's more lies.

01:09:31.830 --> 01:09:34.130
As you said, we need we need to come at this with the truth.

01:09:34.130 --> 01:09:36.930
Yeah, it makes all the difference.

01:09:37.370 --> 01:09:38.830
It makes all the difference in the world.

01:09:39.230 --> 01:09:43.650
And there's so much hope that there is so much hope.

01:09:44.310 --> 01:09:55.850
And if we can, we can get that more deeply, it can really change so much because hope, hope and hopelessness are not just these intangible, floaty ideas out there.

01:09:55.850 --> 01:09:57.470
They're very tangible.

01:09:57.950 --> 01:10:02.190
Hopelessness kills people, and hope changes people's lives.

01:10:03.270 --> 01:10:04.990
And, and that's why I'm all about it.

01:10:05.530 --> 01:10:09.950
Yeah, I always say the one thing that we absolutely need more than anything else is hope.

01:10:10.669 --> 01:10:12.530
When we lose hope, then we're done.

01:10:13.410 --> 01:10:19.530
As long as we have hope that things can get better, that things will get better, then we can we can endure pretty much anything.

01:10:20.270 --> 01:10:21.709
So it's, it's keep that hope.

01:10:21.850 --> 01:10:24.169
And again, you're just, you're just, you're such a great example of that.

01:10:24.329 --> 01:10:24.970
So thank you.

01:10:25.669 --> 01:10:26.829
We're coming to the end of our time.

01:10:26.990 --> 01:10:29.789
Could you tell people, I know that you work with, with women.

01:10:31.110 --> 01:10:34.050
So tell people how they can reach you and what services you offer.

01:10:35.690 --> 01:10:36.090
Yeah.

01:10:36.090 --> 01:10:36.490
Yep.

01:10:36.530 --> 01:10:41.530
If you're interested in connecting with me, you can go to hopespeaker.com.

01:10:41.970 --> 01:10:43.510
I write a weekly blog.

01:10:43.850 --> 01:10:44.970
I enjoy writing.

01:10:44.970 --> 01:10:53.510
And I also met hope speaker on Instagram and either hope speaker or Rachel Powell on Facebook.

01:10:54.270 --> 01:11:00.369
And yes, what I am primarily focused on doing is serving my Christian widow sisters.

01:11:00.369 --> 01:11:02.630
So I do one-to-one coaching.

01:11:03.270 --> 01:11:15.050
And I also have a newly launched Christian widow community where, where we can be together and not just, it's not an intangible Facebook group.

01:11:15.050 --> 01:11:19.910
It's where I can support into a community and reach more women at a time.

01:11:19.910 --> 01:11:25.950
And so you can find out more about those things at hopespeaker.com.

01:11:26.890 --> 01:11:36.430
The Christian widow community specifically, you can find out more about at hope stronghold.com because hope is our stronghold.

01:11:36.670 --> 01:11:37.810
It's a biblical idea.

01:11:37.810 --> 01:11:39.410
And we grieve with hope.

01:11:39.710 --> 01:11:47.890
And like you said, hope, it just changes everything because we always have hope in the Lord.

01:11:48.190 --> 01:11:49.369
And there is hope ahead.

01:11:49.770 --> 01:11:52.170
And anything other than that is a lie.

01:11:52.510 --> 01:11:54.869
Hope can shape our future and our lives.

01:11:54.869 --> 01:11:59.690
And we're creating our lives around us based on our thoughts and our thinking.

01:11:59.990 --> 01:12:09.990
So I focus a lot there on like we talked about changing and impacting ourselves and therefore our entire lives and future ahead.

01:12:10.850 --> 01:12:11.329
Awesome.

01:12:11.530 --> 01:12:12.610
Well, Rachel, thanks for being here today.

01:12:12.650 --> 01:12:13.570
Have a great rest of your day.

01:12:14.050 --> 01:12:14.630
Thank you.

01:12:14.770 --> 01:12:15.369
You too, Brian.

01:12:17.730 --> 01:12:20.369
Grief doesn't follow stages, timelines or rules.

01:12:21.289 --> 01:12:23.329
And if you've ever wondered, am I doing this right?

01:12:23.730 --> 01:12:24.470
You're not alone.

01:12:25.090 --> 01:12:26.970
That's why I created the grief check-in.

01:12:27.369 --> 01:12:28.329
It's not a test.

01:12:28.610 --> 01:12:30.010
There are no right or wrong answers.

01:12:30.490 --> 01:12:34.730
It's simply a gentle way to understand how grief may be showing up for you right now.

01:12:35.289 --> 01:12:42.210
In just a few minutes, you'll gain clarity and language for what you're experiencing without judgment labels or pressure to move on.

01:12:42.930 --> 01:12:46.430
If you're wondering where you are in grief, this is a safe place to look.

01:12:46.430 --> 01:12:49.890
Go to grief2growth.com slash check-in.

01:12:50.410 --> 01:12:54.470
That's griefnumerals2growth.com slash check-in.