Grief Speaks Out with Jan Warner

Brian Smith  0:00  
Close your eyes and imagine

what are the things in life the causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried, but what if like a seed we've been planted and having been planted, who grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. Everybody this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth and today I've got with me Jan Warner. When Jan Warner's husband died, she felt an intensity of grief that she hadn't anticipated. Her husband was a recovering alcoholic who spent his sober, sober life being available to other alcoholics and addicts. In order to honor him, she decided to make herself available to other grieving people thinking if she reach one person, that would be enough. So she started a blog Stop thief Don't steal my grief, which even though she doesn't write new posts on anymore, still has over 2000, often as more than 2000 hits per month. She has a Facebook page, it's called grief speaks out, and that she puts on there seven posts a day. And there are two and a half million likes from people all over the world and that page. Her book is called grief day by day simple practices and daily guidance for living with loss. And it's sold almost 70,000 copies. It has over 1800 reviews on Amazon, which is an amazing accomplishment itself. And the majority of those are the reviews are five stars. She's also been a guest on many podcasts. She's a vagabond, who has been on all seven continents, and she's involved in the arts having produced documentaries. And she's currently producer of the super U musical. Her favorite role in life, though, is being a grandmother. And with that, I want to welcome to grifter growth. Jan Warner,

Jan Warner  2:02  
thank you so much. Thank you for having me. 

Brian Smith  2:04  
It is really great to have you here it was we were talking before we start recording about synchronicities and our lives. And I had someone on my podcasts who mentioned your name. That's how I found out about you. And I've been on your on your Facebook page before that, but I didn't know who you are, because you're very low key on your Facebook page. And we'll talk about that why that's important. And then I also thought that we're co authors of the book gathering at the doorway, we each have a chapter in that. And I just I just learned that just a short while ago, after I'd actually booked you to be on the podcast. So this is all came together kind of interestingly.

Jan Warner  2:39  
Thank you. It's a smaller world than you think I had a request last year, I still can't believe it. That's from somebody from Mongolia. And they have Amazon in Mongolia, and somebody from Malaysia. So

especially with grief, it doesn't matter what culture you come from, or what religion you are or what your background is, when you lose somebody you love. You're sad, and you miss them. So the commonalities are there. I'm somebody that tries to look for commonalities instead of differences.

Brian Smith  3:09  
Yeah, I think you're doing an excellent job of that. So I know you're you have a very interesting life, it's kind of hard to know where to start. But let's start with what launched you on this this journey, particular journey, you are now with helping people with grief. And I know there was a grief event in your life. So if you could talk about your your husband,

Jan Warner  3:27  
I have a life that you could edit and make it look extremely exciting. And you could also edit and just find me laying in bed in my pajamas at one o'clock in the afternoon watching horrible TV. So I do both. I always have time. I like wallowing in self pity. But I try to limit it in time. So I'm like a lot of people, I am successful, and I do a lot of things. But it's hard to make it feel like that it's me doing it. But I guess it is my husband was older than I was. And I thought when he died because I thought about him dying, that I would be sad and I would miss him. But what I didn't know was I felt like a house in a hurricane that splintered. I didn't know who I was or where I was, I thought he would come get me I really thought I was somebody that was gonna die of heartbreak. I would literally put my hand in the air and wait for him to come get me. He didn't. And then I thought about killing myself. So there's a chapter in suicide on suicide in my book, and I decided that I couldn't give the grief to people who loved me that I was experiencing. So I didn't start out by having any kind of goal. I just My only goal was to stay alive and I went for lots of help and from places and I bought a plaque that made me laugh saying have an adequate life. And then after a while, I thought well I need to read

seemed to be here, because I felt like just a total waste of space. I felt like I used to say we died by mistake instead of he died. I still do sometimes.

And as you said, he was a recovering alcoholic. And I thought, Well, if he could make himself available to addicts and alcoholics, 24 hours a day, I could honor him, and I make myself available to other grieving people. And if I reached one person, it was enough. I never expected that it would. I hope there's life after death, because I want to ask him, I also have a very dark sense of humor, I want to ask him what he thinks about his dying, turning into a career, because it's just absurd. But I feel extremely humble, that humbled and honored that whatever I say, or do or write seems to bring some measure of comfort to people who, when somebody dies, there's really nothing to do unless you can resurrect their loved one, which I can't.

Brian Smith  5:58  
 So

tell me about, tell me about your husband's name was is already right. So tell me. So tell me about, you know, meeting him and about your life together.

Jan Warner  6:12  
You know, the expression a diamond in the rough. People used to call him a rhinestone in the rough. When he was in he was a real, down and out alcoholic. I didn't know when he was drinking, but he was homeless. And I said to him once, when you were homeless? Did you look around and say, How to other people have homes to go to? And I don't? And he said, No, I just thought about how I could score at the other, another drink. So his sobriety was the most important thing to him. When he was dying, somebody offered him a bottle of whiskey. And they told me afterwards, and he said, No, and I never did, because I knew that dying server was important. It was slipping so or so that was the most important thing in his life. And I met him when he came on my bookstore. I opened a bookstore all these all those years ago. And I used to call them the poster boy for Mad Men who can't commit because we were together for 10 years before we got married. And I don't know if everybody will understand this reference, but I call it Vulcan mind lock. We just, he said once that we were connected before we met, and we'd always be together. But he was really scared because he'd been married a lot. I used to do his ex wives like a memory test. But then he said ours was his first real marriage. And it wasn't perfect. We fought. So we, we supported each other. I now describe it as he helped my kite string so I could soar. I had no idea how totally central he was. And I apologize to him all the time. And I hope he can hear me just because there are things about him. I can't it's hard for me to believe he has been dead for 13 years. But there are things about him that I can't understand now. But I'm beginning to understand and then there's things that I really understand deeply. And I wish I had been able to understand them better when he was still living. So I think that's a part of our love story is that it's not a perfect love story. But that does less than the love that continues in any way.

Brian Smith  8:21  
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I love your honesty about you know what, how you felt after after his passing or after his death? Because I think that's a common feeling for, for me, it was a child, but I think when a spouse or child passes, and when you said you know, we died, I think that's if we start we feel right, we feel like part of us, at least a part of us is not and that's all of us went with them.

Jan Warner  8:49  
It it hurt. I mean, that's, I've explained this to explain it to regular people. But I also explained to a therapist, you're trying to fix a trauma that happened 13 years ago, the trauma didn't happen. It happened 13 years ago, his death. But the trauma happens every day, sometimes several times in the day, because I wake up and every day, it's like my husband is still dead. How do I make today a happy and productive day when my husband is dead? When a child is dead, a spouse? A pet some people get nervous around pets. I know that for some people, pets are their whole life so I respect any kind of grief or miscarriage. You have hopes and dreams for that baby. So the longest grief I had on grief speaks out was a woman that said that she'd been grieving for her daughter for 74 years. And I had a man whose father died when he was a child and he said he was in his seven days and every day of his life. He's wondering how his life would be different if his father had left. So grief becomes part of my life but it goes on forever and I just did that thing that an actor once said? I think that was a good answer. But I don't remember the question.

Brian Smith  10:06  
No, that was a great answer. Because you I mean, the thing about grief until we expand, we all experience it, if we live long enough, it's a universal thing, we all go through it. And it can be, it can be a pet, it could be, you know, it could be a lot of different things. It could be a miscarriage, but that feeling that our world has ended that that you know, life is no longer the same, that that we're just not the same person. And when you have that connection, I love you explaining the connection you have with already it's not perfect. All marriages have their ups and downs and stuff, but our relationships. But you were you guys are like, twin flames. It sounds like you know, like you were you were the one. And so what what is it prompted you after you you're not after but you're going through this and you decide to write a blog, I find that to be a really interesting choice.

Jan Warner  11:00  
So this is probably maybe 11 or 12 years ago. And I blog just seemed like a way to just put my thoughts out and the public and have people find it because as I said, my goal was to reach one person, I didn't know it would get so big. And then somebody said to me, you have to start a Facebook page. And I went, Oh, okay, so I looked on Facebook and just sort of put grease speaks out and the information you need. And then she said, that's great. I liked it. Check, like and I went, Oh, fill in your favorite curse word. Now I have to put something, what am I going to do? So I started it. And if you find a way to go back to the very beginning, it didn't have the pattern that it did. Now it didn't have quite as many posts. And I remember getting the first 100 likes, and I thought 1000 likes would be respectable. It would mean it was a real page. And if you had said someday you'll have 2.4 million people from South Africa and Australia and all over the United States and Europe. And I wouldn't have said now. But there's something that this group speaks out. That really honors grief, because one of the posts is simply a heart and the heart never gets ready met very many shares. But it doesn't matter. Because the heart to me means that everybody is on this page because they were lucky to love and be loved. And that's my resting place always is. One of my favorite questions is with all the pain you're in. Now, was it worth it? And I've only had one person say no, everybody else feels the way I do that the love that we shared was worth any of the pain of loss.

Brian Smith  12:56  
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a really good point. So let's talk about the page and what it is it you know, again, what I was saying, before we started recording, when I came across the page, I looked at the number of people that liked the page and like this, I must have read that wrong. Other than corporations, I don't see pages that have nearly that many likes, and I was just looking at some other people in the grief field earlier, before we got on just to kind of get a comparison, you know, 70 80,000 people following the pages a lot. 2.4 million is unheard of. So you're doing something that's really drawing people. And so tell me about the page?

Jan Warner  13:34  
Well, I when I look at the statistics, I often reach about 2 million people a month, which means in terms of reach, I'm assuming Facebook is counting people that have actually looked at a post and interacted with the post it. I know, in my world, I've liked pages that I don't actually look at. So I don't know how many people are actively involved. But I do have a huge number of people that are actively involved. There are seven posts a day, so nobody goes to them. And they're always posted between six and 630 in the morning in New York City time. So I'm humbled and it's amazing to meet but if you live in Vietnam, or wherever you live, some people that's what they do. When they get up in the morning, they have a cup of coffee, and they see what I posted for the day. And the posts are a combination of pictures, quotes, short comments from me. Quotes From Famous author so you get points of view that aren't mine, but are beautifully written. You get a picture of a heart, as I said, for love. And then there's always a question of the day and I make up some of the questions and I always write an answer if I've had the experience. One of the rules is you have to share your own experience. So for example, if somebody's loved one has taken their own life, I can't share because I haven't had that experience. And often the questions come from people so The people learn that what they're feeling is normal with that they're not crazy. And it's a safe space. Because you're not allowed to talk to people in cliches, you're not allowed to tell them to get over it. I do come on now twice a day, because there's lots of scammers and spellcasters and strangeness on Facebook. So I block all those people. But I work really hard to make it a safe space so that if you're going to reveal something about yourself, that's really personal. Nobody's going to tell you that you're doing it wrong. Because sometimes people ask me, if what they're doing is normal. And I laugh because I go, why are you asking me? But I've stopped asking myself, what's normal? I've asked myself, How does it serve my life? What kind of life do I want to have? I often quote Mary Oliver, whose poem said, What is it you want to do with your one wild and precious life? And sometimes the answer, especially at the beginning, was I don't want to do anything, I just want to be with my husband. So now I've created a thing of some things that don't serve my life, I can change some things, I can't. Some things I want to work on. Some things I don't. In the section in the book where I say I want you to move. I say, if you want to go and have a run, that's great. But if all you could do is move your little finger, move your middle finger, because you always have to start where you are and where you are is okay. Because when you're ready, you'll know.

Brian Smith  16:27  
Yeah, I think that's one of the things well, there's a lot of things that attract people to the page. And then I also want to acknowledge how much work it is to do something like this, for anybody that tries to put out content on a daily basis to, to come up with seven things, seven things a day to post and then to keep the trolls away on a page is so popular is incredibly hard. And you know, it's interesting, you talked about the number of people interact with your page, because I'm on Facebook a lot. Most of the time, when you post something on your Facebook page, it doesn't reach very many people, because Facebook uses algorithms to figure out are people really interacting with this. So the fact that you're reaching that many people is even more impressive, the fact that you have two and a half million people that have liked your page, it's an active page, people come. And even if they're not even if they're not commenting, or posting, they're coming, they're checking the reading, and they're they're getting something out of it.

Jan Warner  17:19  
That's why it's an open page. The feedback that I get, I'm smiling, because I don't really want the feedback is that it should be a private group. But it's an open page, because a lot of people don't want to join a group, they don't want anybody to know that you're looking. So if anybody wants to read what's on the page, and will find it helpful, I want them to have access to it. So I'm willing to deal with the uncomfortable people, or the out of place people. That's what the Blog button is for. And it is i i wish that Facebook has so many algorithms, I certainly they could get rid of them. But it's so many people have said to me, I can't even say this, but I'm going to anyway. So I guess I can that I've saved their lives, I don't believe I've saved their lives. I think they've saved their own life, but that I've really affected how they're grieving and help them either feel better, or find ways of doing different things that I feel like, it's too important to stop. So I'll do it until I can't do it anymore. Because it's such a gift to me to make something unbearable, a bit more bearable for people just by creating this group. So it's and somebody helped me a lot. They didn't know because I said something. She's talking about her job. And I said, Well, I don't work. And she said, Yes, you do. Thinking of it as working, made it more. This is what I do. So you know, just get up and do it because it's your work.

Brian Smith  19:02  
Yeah, yeah, it is. It is a lot of work. And I said I wanted to acknowledge it. I know it's a labor of love. And maybe it doesn't feel like work, but it is you're putting in a lot of hours. You're getting up early. You're and you're creating the space. So I know when when you're like you are you're dealing with people and if you spoke with so many people great. People always ask what do I say to someone in grief? So what's your advice when someone asks you that question?

Jan Warner  19:27  
My first advice is, don't talk. Listen. Sometimes I'll say to somebody, whatever you most needed me to say. Pretend I just said it. But ask the person if they will, because everybody reacts differently. People gave me flowers when already died, which most people would think was beautiful. I said my house sucks like filling your favorite curse word funeral parlor and put them all outside. So when somebody is grieving, ask them to say what was See honors, say I know I can't fix it. But can I listen to you? And if somebody has been grieving for a long time, ask them what they miss about the person they love who died? Because it opens doors instead of shutting doors. So many people even after I had, I thought I had invented this wonderful phrase when somebody said, How are you doing? I would say, I'm okay with not being okay. And after six weeks whenever a really sweet woman said to me still, so whether it's six weeks or 60 years, if you say, What do you miss about your mom? What do you miss about your child? What do you miss about your sport? What do you miss about whoever you just open a door. And finally, the person can talk. And they can also say, if they say I don't want to talk about it is too painful respect that. So don't think that you have any words that can make it better you don't. So because that's the other thing I am, as you can tell, maybe a little I'm a little snarky. So when people would say what can I do? I would say can you resurrect dead people? And they would say no. And I would say, well, then there's nothing you can do. But I appreciate your asking. Because that's that's the only thing I can do. You know, if I could give your child back, that's the only thing that will really fix

Brian Smith  21:14  
it. Yeah, you know, and we do we have this. I'm going through grief certification program right now. It's so it's all these people and the guidance leading, like, stop trying to fix each other. Because every time someone says anything, in the chat on the Zoom, everybody's like, Do this, do this. We all we all have. And it's not a bad thing we all want to nurture. But we have to understand that we can't take someone else's pain away. We can't bring that person back for them. And I think one of the reasons why the pages and there's again, there's several ways and why it's so it's so successful. Is there is a lot of listening that goes on there's a lot of witnessing people want to be witnessed. Yes, definitely want to be told they're they're not alone. And they want to be told they're normal.

Jan Warner  21:59  
I will do I do have training in hypnotherapy and or linguistic programming. So I will do sneaky things. Occasionally, if you see me saying something like you might find accidentally that you smiled, either tomorrow, or yesterday, or a month ago, but you didn't notice it. That's actually a hypnotic suggestion. And I've never talked to anybody normally, when you're doing hypnosis with people, I haven't practiced, I have a Master's in Counseling and a long time. I don't know if it works on the page, because there's a lot of putting into trance and tonality. But I do have certain sentence structures that I use some time. So if you're watching this, you need to go to the page you can look for I don't use them that often. But you can look for them, when I said was when you're ready or not. So when the person says, Well, I'm never going to be ready, I already said or not. So some of it is I've learned I've had training and how to use language. But I have two kinds of people, I have people that come to the page for a little while. And with three, I would say and feel like they don't need it anymore. I have people that come for a long time because it helps them. And then I have people that just for whatever reason. It's where they express their grief. But again, it's called grief speaks out. So if you only read grief speaks out, you wouldn't know I had a life. Because what I say in grief speaks out is always about grieving. It's always about my husband, you'd have to go to my personal page to say, oh, that's why you don't like advice because somebody wants usually I'm very calm and collected on Grosbeaks output. Somebody said, Well, you've been grieving for a long time, you should get a life and I went, Oh, yeah. And then I listed like all done in about six months and said I have a life. So yeah, it's it's just it's so normal. And it's in every culture. I don't think I would have as many followers if there were cultures where people allowed you to process your grief. And it's sad and people stopped speaking to you. And when I was writing the book, I had the example of somebody going to a faith based person being told that if they really believed in God, they wouldn't be sad. And the person said, That would never happen. And I said, No, I'm telling you have a story that's repeated from time to time. So yes, it does happen. Oh, it absolutely happens. Yeah, the best friend stopped speaking my I had to my best friend stopped speaking to me. Sometimes the people we look to for support, just go can't handle this by so it's tough.

Brian Smith  24:47  
Yeah, and I love what you said about you know, people telling you get to get a life because people think I can You can either be in grief or you can have a life but you can't do both. And the fact is, you're going to you You have to do both. You know, you're not the grief doesn't go away. And I and I know people don't want to hear that. And I know there's some people who, you know, put on happy face, maybe I love your authenticity, about you know where you are, you know, even 13 years later, I'm seven years after my daughter passed, and I don't, I don't intend to get over the grief. You know, I don't think it's even possible. And it's not something I really want to do.

Jan Warner  25:25  
There was a psychologist, Dr. Stoller, out that posted on Greece picks out a couple of times. And he understood because his wife had died. And I liked what he talked about was finding a relational home for grief, so that you don't try now I do know people who have asked to be released from grief and say they happen. So if you can find a way to do that, that's, that's powerful. But for me, there's so layer, it's like think of a sunflower, that always has a dark center. But I have lots of yellow puddles now around it, or a layer cake that has a layer of grief, but I can build it up. So because part of it we talked to you talked about gathering at the doorway, is I'm an interesting author in that book, because I had a lot of proof that there's an afterlife, and that RDS around, he's saying, Would you stop it just like admit that I'm here? But it's how do I have a relationship with somebody who is I like the word transitioned, but who's dead. I want a physical person, I want him here and his botany, I want to know what he thinks about things. So I feel like the, the relationship continues. And I'm just gonna stick it in here. Because one of the most important things that I got to at some point was, I'm sad, because I always think about my husband is dead. He was alive for a long time. So if I think of him as being alive, and not only alive, but health, see, then I'm happier. And I want his life and our life together to matter more than his death, because of all I ever think about his his death. And all he ever talks about is death. I'm not doing anything to celebrate every struggle that he had, every success that he had everything that he taught me. So he still inspires me. He still I that's the other thing is hopefully in an afterlife. I want him to be able to say, Hey, I'm really proud of you. Yeah, you sometimes you fell down, but then you got up again. So

Brian Smith  27:32  
yes, absolutely. And, again, what you said, I think it's so important, this idea that, and the early part of grief and grief speak out, I see a lot of the early part of grief, where everything is dark, and everything is black. And we all know that we've all we've been through that. And everybody goes through that phase. But then there comes a point where we do start to integrate the grief into our life, and we start to think about our loved one and the wonderful times we had together, you know, and, and if you like you and I both believe that they're still with us, and that we will see them again. So I tell people, it's not only did I have a great 15 years with my daughter, and I will see her again in a few years. But I have her with me now. Just in a different way. And so that when people think of grief, they they think of like mourning, sadness, you know, but it's it's a lot more than that.

Jan Warner  28:27  
Yeah, I can fuse somebody who interviewed me because she said, What do you want to call it? And I said, Why don't we call it celebrating grief? How could you call it celebrating? Great, what's to celebrate about grief. And what I said was the fact that I got to love so and also that my husband doesn't have to grieve for me, which is a sacrifice that I didn't make on purpose. But I'm glad that he's not going through what I'm going through.

Brian Smith  28:53  
Yeah, and that's such an important thing that and that's just flipping you know, everything's a matter of how we look. And it's the kind of flipping it's on his head, we could say, well, what if we didn't have that person in our life at all, then we wouldn't have the grief. And like you said, when you put that question to people, 99.99% of people say no, it was worth having them in my life, I'll take the pain. And that's, that's part of as part of love.

Jan Warner  29:16  
And I my personal belief is that, because some people will feel like you're not allowing your loved one to do what they need to do. My belief is that time and space are different where they are. So I can say, hey, I need you and Artie can be with me in any way he can be with me, but also do whatever it is that he's called on to do wherever he is now. I don't know if it's true or not. But I did have some phone calls with a friend who was immediate when he first died. And he said because he always ran in a meeting, that he ran meetings for people who couldn't adjust to being dead, which seemed like something that he would do so Um, you know, it seemed like he had some work. He also said that he, nobody was judging him, he had to look at everything he had done in his life and see how he entered people and learn from that before he could go on. So that was interesting. But yeah, that he celebrates with me when I laugh, but he understands when I cry, I don't think our loved ones expect us to be perfect. And I don't think they're angry at us when we're happy. I think he'd be annoyed if I like, didn't miss them at all. But that would never happen. So yeah, maybe I'm making it all up, I don't know. But I also say if I say, You know what, I don't believe in Paris, Paris doesn't exist, it's not going to affect Paris, Paris is going to keep on going, the Persians are still going to be eating much better bread than we have here. So whether or not you believe in the afterlife, or I believe in the afterlife doesn't have anything to do it function allows me to function. But I it doesn't make any sense to me that so many of us could have such powerful journeys with people that they would end. And the year if you were watching any documentaries on the universe, it's so big, and it's expanding. So there actually is plenty of room for all of us. I don't know.

Brian Smith  31:19  
Well, so I want to talk about that. Because you I know you a little bit and I've listened to other interviews with you. And I know you're you're I would say you're still a skeptic when it comes to the afterlife. But I know you've had some incredible experiences with rd. So could you share some of those? Some of the experiences you've had with already since since he's passed?

Jan Warner  31:40  
Yeah, the first one was and some of you who have watched other things might have heard me tell the story because it's my favorite one.

Announcer  31:47  
We'll get back to grief to growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach. If you're grieving or know someone who is grieving his book, grief to growth is a best selling easy to read book that might help you or someone you know, people work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at WWW dot grief to growth.com www.gr IE F the number two GROWT h.com or text growth, grow T H 231996. If you'd like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/grief to growth www.patreon.com/grie F the number two g r o wth to make a financial contribution. And now back to grief to growth

Jan Warner  32:48  
was I went to the we had a local UPS Store in Carmel. And there was somebody that worked there that knew us as customers. So he wasn't a friend. We didn't go in that much. But he would recognize because Artie and I were both people that we talked to somebody when we were in a store. And I needed two more boxes, because I only lived in California till I could move back to New York. So I was since he died. I was moving back to New York. And the UPS man was very serious looking. He was thin and nicely groomed and had wire when rimmed glasses and spoke well, I guess I'm trying to say he didn't appear to be anybody that there's some people that just look like they have all these spiritual experiences. I'm saying that but like, that's a bad thing. That's not a bad thing. But he looked like an ordinary person. He said, can I carry the boxes to your car for you? And I said, No, that's okay, I can handle it. And he said, Please, let me carry the boxes to your car for you. Okay, he's insistent. So we got to my car and put the boxes in my car. And he said, your husband appeared to me. And he told me that I have to tell you how much he loves you and how much he always loves you. And you must never forget how much he loves you. And I laughed, and I said, that must have been a heck of a dream. And he said, it wasn't a dream. It was an apparition. I'm telling you the truth. You must know how much your husband loves you. And then I started to cry. And I've since made it into the joke unto a joke because I say what is UPS deliver to you? If a friend had said that, to me, I would have just thought they were making me feel better. But there was absolutely no reason for this man to tell me something so personal. If he hadn't seen already, why would he even be thinking about my husband? So there was that one I've had other people. Already always in AAA. If somebody a newcomer came to the group, somebody came for the first time you had to take them out to coffee. This was a follow up Hall, they might go out for a drink after the meeting. And somebody said, you know, already came to the foot of my bed and said, always remember the newcomer. And then I talked about him all the time. So I've had friends that have never met him. I have a friend Kevin, who said, you know, I started meditating. And already just like, showed up in set at a point, keep doing it. So I and I've had people, I've walked into a classroom. Everything I did after already died was sad. It was bereavement groups therapy, and I went, This is crazy. It's like, all sad. So I started taking a comedy sketch writing class. And when I talked about already, somebody in the class said, Oh, that's interesting, because I saw somebody with you when you came in, I didn't know who it was, I guess it was your husband. So all those store, I have more evidence that there's life after death than I have that there isn't. But I also know we all also want it so badly. My favorite thing on tombstones is reunited. So that's a hope, because I couldn't function if I thought that I would never see him again. It would make it impossible for me to live. Although I do, I've turned into Alice in Wonderland, I seem to do six impossible things. Before breakfast, similar, like in the afternoon. But yeah, so it's, I just feel like we don't know, I feel like we're so limited by our bodies and our brain. Because when Artie took that last I was with him, I had the blessing of being with him when he died. And when he breathed in, and breathed out, it was a big breath. And he didn't breathe in. And the other person was like, already already already. And he was gone. He had gone. I felt like he had gone somewhere. I've his body was still there. And I loved his body. And I said goodbye to him. But I didn't, I felt like his spirit had left. And it seemed at his face relaxed. And I've heard people say that before. So it makes more sense to me that he's been, I don't. Some people definitely know. Like, they'll say, yes, there's a heaven. And my husband or my loved one is in heaven. And they know what it's like. I tend to think of us as being bouncing energy balls. But then how do I get a hug without arms? But somebody the other day said, you know, no, we have bodies, because that's how we recognize each other. I'll find out I always said, death is the next big adventure. And I call it the great party in the sky. Because we're so happy to see each other again. But if there isn't anything, I'll be dead, so I won't know. So it'll be okay.

Brian Smith  37:41  
Yeah, that's a good point, too. You know, the thing is, and this is a it's a dilemma. How do we know anything? You know, how do we know anything? For sure? You know, I've heard scientists say that gravity is only a theory. I know that if I dropped this pen, it's going to fall on the floor. But there is some chance that it won't, I guess in a quantum physics universe, but it always does. You know, you've mentioned Paris. I've never been to China, I assume China exists because other people have been there. And it's on a map and people report what it's like. So I love near death experiences because I can talk to people who have been there. You said you've been on medium we can talk to people who are on the other side. So there is so much evidence, but there's but there's also that feeling like this is too good to be true. am I fooling myself and this is what this is what a lot of people tell us, you just you're just fooling yourself in other but there's just also a ton of evidence that's that's undeniable.

Jan Warner  38:41  
That's one of the things I love about gathering at the doorway as most of the people in that book. Don't have any doubts. And I ended my chapter. I can't remember exactly what I said. But I said I'm a skeptic, but my husband is standing at my shoulder and he's telling me to believe so yeah, I it's to me. Not believing is just as I don't want to put an adjective on it as not believing because there is proof both ways because so many people have experienced things. How do you decide when I'm dead? I'll know that helps me is that the pandemic for me, it was lots and lots of history podcasts. When Cleopatra became pharaoh of Egypt. Egypt had existed for 1300 years. So Cleopatra, experienced Ancient Egypt, and a different way that we experienced it, which taught me that my life right now seems like it's 71 I got to be 71 But it seems like it's lasting forever. But in terms of eternity, it's going to be over in a second. So that helps me to to think Have the part of me that wants to be with him that every day I live, I call it decorating the waiting room. I try and make my life as rich as possible by showing up and helping other people. But in some ways, I'm decorating the waiting room, and it seems like a long time. But when I get there, it's gonna seem like a short time.

Brian Smith  40:21  
So when you say decorating a waiting room, do you mean that this life is just the waiting room? And so what we do here is not really lasting? Or what is what does that? What does that phrase mean to you?

Jan Warner  40:32  
So many people, including me feel like it's just really difficult to live without our loved ones who have died, or on the other side, or transitioned? Or one of the questions I asked sometimes is what word do you like to use, and I like dead because it's a blunt person. But there's so many words for it. So I transitioned on the other side. They just want to be with that person. So that's one of the ways of, if I look at it as decorating the waiting room, because my grief comes with me everywhere. I can go out and have a really good time and bring my grief with me. That was oh, that was one of my experiences with RT i I knew I liked theater. I'm in New York City most of the time. And when he first died, I would go to theater, and I would I slept through Hugh Jackman and Daniel Craig. I slept through everything I wake up when people applauded. And then I went to see Carrie Fisher, and not only they stay awake, but I laughed and I went, oh my god, I could still laugh. This is really interesting. And then I went to see this huge Stephen Sondheim Gala. And I was feeling really sorry for myself. And I heard it say, you know, when I was alive, you'd asked me to go places. And I'd say no, now that I'm dead, I can come with you everywhere. And he even came to New York, he wouldn't come to New York City, because he didn't like to travel when he got older. But this is I hope this doesn't offend anybody. But he was cremated and his ashes were in the overhead compartment. So he did finally come with me to New York, just in a different form. And I wanted to say to the person sitting next to but you know, my husband's in the overhead compartment. But I was afraid I'd freak him out. So it's, it's, that's what I have left of him, which is I think why people go to grave sites and have a relationship with the what's left. But I also have this richness of His Spirit that from what I hear from other people, it's not just here for me, but is here for everybody.

Brian Smith  42:36  
Yeah, it sounds like already, you know, gets around, and it's helping a lot of people even even even in his in his form that he's in now. And so I'm so a little bit confused about decorating the waiting room. So does that mean that you feel like this This life is the waiting room? Is that correct?

Jan Warner  42:55  
Yeah. But when you say it that way, it makes me feel like I would say that the part of me that's grieving things of this life is the waiting room, the part of me that over 13 years have learned tools, because I'm really very ordinary. I know, I seem extraordinary sometimes. But I'm not very ordinary. And I've never walked easy on the earth. So the part of me that's alive thinks that everything I do in my life is very important. But right now, I've been given the opportunity to help people in Ukraine. And that's very important. I can make choices in our lives. And people say, Well, you much love other people a lot. I don't I, a lot of times I'm you know, I'd rather be in my room by myself, but I hate suffering. I just absolutely hate suffering. So anything I can do to relieve suffering. So is this may be all that there is. So I should make it as amazing as I can. Wow. Somebody said to me when I was young, I was I was about 20. And I was going to Europe for the summer. And she said she was an old woman, probably in her 60s, which is younger than I am now. She said, I wish I had done that when I was young. And she doesn't know this. But she changed my whole life. Because I've ident lived in a way. So now that when I'm 71 If I could I did it. I just wish I could still do it with already physically, but I can't. Yeah, I have to do it on my own.

Brian Smith  44:34  
And I didn't mean to press you on that. But I really want to understand what you're saying. Because I think that is there. To me. The older I get, the more I know, we have to live with paradoxes. There two things can be true at the same time. So in a way what we do here, there's no real harm. There's no permanent damage. The pain all goes away. One day we're going to be on the other side I believe. And even if you don't believe that if you believe there's nothing then It still all goes away. It's all it's all very temporary. But on the other hand, the love that we create here, the memories that we create all of that I believe goes with us. And even those little things like an offhand comment. So I might say to you, like, I really wish I'd done that with that when I was young, that changed your life, that woman, some people will call an angel, you know, an angel is just a messenger from God. And we never know the little things that we do, we call little, how those ripples can affect other people. And so I see you living your life, like, you know, I heard you I was listening to another interview said, you get these head taps, I think you call it from RT, where he kind of taps you in, and he's with you, I hear you talking to them all the time. And, and I see you, you know, this page, it's changing millions of lives in the book that's reaching people. So you're, you're you're creating these ripples, and you're living your life as though it really has a lot of meaning.

Jan Warner  45:54  
Thank you, I have come to believe that it's hard to find their purpose for some people, I was easy, it was easy for me, because when I thought about it, I had already had as an example, and was able to translate it. But it can be as simple as being in the grocery store and saying to the checkout person, those are really pretty earrings, or your hair is beautiful. And it just brightens up their whole day. So I have tremendous admiration for all the people that turn grief into something big. In terms of a book or Facebook page, or I don't know, teaching or whatever. Something like what you do, you know, you turn it into your work. But it doesn't have to be that it could be art, it could be mother, even Mother Teresa said, if you want to change the world, go home and love your family. Take care of your pets. But those were my two things was to show up, I still do that. I make plans, because I'll probably have a good time when I get there. Even though I don't want to go. And especially at the beginning, I didn't want to go anywhere. So showing up like at the theater, you know, being willing to fall asleep until I could wake up and helping other people even when I was like, mostly in bed watching endless endless. One time ago, CDs, then I would go on Facebook and I would find people that were suffering. They would like talk about being depressed or talk or whatever. And I would just make read a comment that was supportive of them. And some of those people are still Facebook friends today. So if I'm thinking about somebody besides myself, I'm not thinking of myself even for a second. And in the love that was I had a friend she since passed. Celeste was an amazing woman, but her husband died. And she said, I always sit in his chair and people will think it's because I love him so much. And it's because I can't look at it, but it's empty. And then her 50 year old son who was a marvelous human being who always helped other people had a brain aneurysm and died. So when, and he was her only child. So when Artie died, she wrote me a letter and she said, I can't do anything about the pain. But what I've learned is what's important is the love and I can rest in the love. And the actress some of you know the actress Betty White. She was in New York, and she was being Betty White. She was being cute and funny. And we can ask questions, and I said my husband died recently. Do you have any advice for me, and she immediately got totally serious. And she said, it never goes away. Something brings it back the smell of a flower, just being somewhere. And she also said, what you what you rest in is the love. And there's been something I've been wanting to say, and I keep forgetting it's in the book. A lot of people feel memories become painful. And there is an exercise that they started using with soldiers that have PTSD. And it's called rolling your memories backwards. And so you find a coke replace and you can play music or not. And what you do is you go back in your imagination to the time when the memory happened. So for example, already, you still like to dance with me and sing as time goes by in my ear. When he was doing that. What did it feel like? What was the temperature? What did it sound like? And you make it really vivid. There was no knowledge of his death. There was no sadness, there was no pain. It was just fun. And I'm totally uncoordinated. So we call it thug dancing. So it was also funny, and then you concentrate on that memory as it was at the time giving you pure happiness, and then you bring it back into the present intact, and sometimes you have to keep doing it. Sometimes you can succeed the first time, but if it works with soldiers that have PTSD, it can work for me. So that is some of the excerpts He says in the book you won't see anywhere else because I made them up. But that's one of the ones I put in. Because that's the worst thing grief can do is to make my, my good memories painful or to make my good, very sad. And that's grief is wicked grief will try and do that. But it's like, you know, I'm saying that a lot. I've never said that interview before ability or favorite curse word, grief, you know, it's like, those are my memories. And I can now listen to as time goes by and feel happy, I first used to hear it, I would just start crying.

Brian Smith  50:33  
That's, that's so awesome. And so important. Because I've heard of people saying, just a couple days ago, I can't listen to music anymore. Period, like, I can't listen, I'm like, That would be horrible. That would be hell for me, or I can't listen to my son's favorite band or, you know, stuff like that. And it's like, you're you're, I understand why it happens, because it triggers that missing them. But it's robbing you of that precious memory that you had. And I remember, I live near a Taco Bell. And my wife doesn't like Taco Bell. So it was a place that Shane and I would go together. And the first few times I would drive by that Taco Bell, it would make me very sad, I would just break out in tears, because I will think about what was not being with there anymore. And now I can drive by there and think about the times we had there together, just the two of us. And so that's that's the that's the integration that we want to try to get to, to, to reclaim those memories.

Jan Warner  51:29  
That's so important. And it's so normal, because that's one of the questions that comes up a lot. I'm still having trouble reading. Because rd and I read together we read to each other we read plays out loud. And I you could I don't know if you can see behind me audio by books all the time. But the quiet when I'm reading and not being able to say hey, I just so there are certain it's normal for people to stop doing things they love. But reading is something I'm still working on putting back in my life. Because it's as you say, they were already first died. He loved tennis. It was in boxing. So I'd see like Wimbledon or a boxing match, and I get all sad and angry. Could they keep doing it? He's dead. He can't watch it. And then I went Wait a minute, instead of thinking that he's not here to watch it. What if you think about all the joy he had from watching it when he was alive. So that's, that's part of the neuro linguistic programming is thinking of your brain is a computer, you can literally retrain your brain. If you if you if you retrain how you're thinking about something. Sometimes it's easy. Sometimes it's not so easy, but it's possible.

Brian Smith  52:37  
Speaking of that, I think that's a good what good segue to talk about your book, talk talk about the book. And the structure of the book is not just it's not just your bio, your biography?

Jan Warner  52:48  
No. And I was actually Well, first of all, I opened and I was always going to write a book, and I never did. And I opened my email one morning, and because I have so many people on my Facebook page, it was from a publisher who said, We think we'd like you to write a book on grief. And I went, Oh, okay, well, I can answer the email. I can make the phone call, or I can do it one step at a time. Somebody just said, How can I write a book I said one word at a time, one picture at a time. So they gave me an outline, which at the beginning I didn't like, because I'm somebody that doesn't like frameworks. But now I love it. It's 52 topics. And I made it so that the topics are like I refused, like when I was talking about despair, or loneliness or suicide, to make them cheery, because they would say there's nothing cheery about this. No, I am going to honor somebody who's feeling desperate, I'm going to honor somebody who's feeling like their life is over. But I have resting places I call them like every five chapters is something like beauty, or music or hope. So. And then, let's see. So there's 52 subjects, each subject has a quote for every day, finding 365 quotes that sometimes was difficult. So you not only get my knowledge about grief, you get these beautiful words of all kinds of people. And they're also really handy because I know people who won't talk about grief and somebody will just say, I read this quote, and then when they say the quote, the person starts talking, I comment on the quotes, I write a little bit about myself. And then at the end of each chapter is an exercise. And some of them are ones that you if you've been trained in some way you might recognize, but then I'm also very creative. So I've taken all my training and made them up. So some people buy the book and start from the beginning and go all the way through. But a lot of people just pick it up and say I'm feeling like I don't know how to take care of myself is there so is there a chapter on care or I'm feeling really desperate? Is there a chapter on that? That's why I had a fight with the publisher because they wanted me to call suicide contemplating the end. And I said, Absolutely not. People that are thinking about killing themselves are not kind of planning the end, they're sitting with a gun in their lap trying to decide whether or not they should pull the trigger. And if one person opens my book and doesn't say the word suicide, and they die, it's your fault. So they allowed called suicide. So you can just like, or you could be somebody who just like, says, here's the book and opens it. And one of my favorite feedback, there are 1800 views on Amazon. So you can read the reviews. If you want more information. You said, I hate to read, but I love your book, because I can just take small snippets of it. And every time I go to part of it, there's something that means something to me. So it turned out to be a nice combination of sharing my own experience and my own story. But also being able to goodreads.com is a wonderful source for quotes of just being able to mind the thoughts and feelings of some of the best minds in the world and include them as well.

Brian Smith  56:18  
Yeah, it sounds like an absolutely wonderful resource. And, you know, publishers, yeah, can say a lot about publishers. But because they, they tell off that you can't do this, you can't do this. And it's changed the title of this, and they screw up a lot of stuff. But I do I do like the fact that it's structured set, because people in grief typically are with grief fog, we can't, we can't read and can't read long things. We've read pages over and over and over again. So having a page or a section a day, give you that that orderly fashion, whether you read an order or not just I can I know I can finish this little thing. I think that's a very important thing.

Jan Warner  56:56  
I just read one quote, or just read what I wrote about my experience with gray fog. I just had a question on grief speaks out where somebody, her husband died two and a half years ago, and she went for a job interview, and she couldn't handle it didn't get the job and wouldn't know if that was normal. And just a lot of answers about how people sometimes 10 years later, you know, you grief changes who you are, it doesn't mean that you can't learn skills again. But a lot of times it's a rebuilding. Sometimes it's the rebuilding from the ground up, but it's also normal. I also had a question for somebody whose mother died and didn't have the meltdown she expected. That's That's why what's normal is sometimes our bodies can't react to the loss. So it doesn't bother us that much. And then sometimes it hits later. It's also somebody told me about what I now call the fifth year blues. Sometimes grief can be exhausting. So you might be doing flying and feel like you're really making progress. And then you get to a certain point and it feels like it's all gone back to the beginning. It hasn't because you've learned things, but it feels like it. But you want to go Why am I somebody wrote a poem once and she said my mother always dies in March? Well, my husband always dies in July, somewhere around June or July. I just start having more trouble living than I do. And I go oh, yeah, even if I'm not thinking about it, it's affecting me. It's like you know, wrestling a dragon. But there's all those stories my granddaughter loves where you you know How to Train Your Dragon. It's, it's all about how to train your grief.

Brian Smith  58:41  
Yeah, that's those are some really excellent points because and, and you're helping against normalize with people because people always want to know, am I normal? Am I okay? Am I going crazy? Because you might some people as you said, they might be in grief. I know where my when my grandmother passed away. My family's very shut down. We don't express emotions very much. So I didn't really grieve that much. And my grandfather, my grandmother passed when I thought maybe there's something wrong. But three years later is when it hit me. Right? It was like it was like three years later.

Jan Warner  59:13  
Yeah, it's all everybody has their own way of reacting. That's why this whole idea, oh, it part of all this work came because I had a very kind therapist, she was lovely. But she said that if I wasn't over it in six months to a year or then I had complicated grief and it was pathological. And I thought that was the stupidest thing I ever heard. Because how foolish would I have to be to stop loving my husband? How foolish would I even have to be not to be sad? I mean, if you don't have any anger about what's going on in the world right now, or sadness, you're not paying attention. So I am more about being authentic than about this idea of it's all good and follow your bliss. Some of it is really one Before I have a bad habit I never learned when somebody says, Oh, are you I'm supposed to say fine, thank you. How are you? And say, how are you? I always say the good part is wonderful. And this part that is not good as horrible. Next.

Brian Smith  1:00:13  
That's funny, you bring that up, because just yesterday I was talking with someone about that, you know, how are you? And no, we're talking about it was a meme. It was funny about how you respond to that, because people say that they don't even wait for an answer. They don't care how you are. And you know, I think you and I are very similar. It's like, how are you? Okay? Do you really want to know, Are you is this just a way of saying, Hello, I want to just say good morning. But you're, it's life is about balance. It's about both. And I love that you, you know, with with grief speaks out, you are talking about the grief, but you're also sneaking in the integration, the the getting back to to living our lives again, along with it's not putting it away. It's not, you know, bypassing it and saying it's all good. It's sometimes it's not so good.

Jan Warner  1:01:01  
I was surprised, too, because when I post something really bleak, it gets a lot more shares than when I post something hopeful. So I asked what people prefer to you know, would you like I made the question that day? Would you like things that are only about the dark side of life? Or do you want hopeful things as well? Do you want? You know? And I was surprised, because the answer I got was, it depends how I feel, I really want the most, the majority of people said I want you to post both. Because even if I'm not relating to something that shows me that the light can come through again, you're putting it in my head. So I learned something from that. It's not all about how many people check, like can share something about so that's really where the tension always is. It's in my own life as well. It's where and to also ask myself the question, like during the pandemic, there was a point when it was kind of over, but it's also kind of not over now. It was like, I just don't care anymore. So what can I do? And so, for me, it was somebody who was doing a history trip where I had gone before, and I know the author, and I thought that would be really fun for me. Kind of it wasn't it wasn't, but I met some amazing people. So it's I worked suicide prevention years ago and London, and I had somebody that was maybe a little younger than me. And one of the things we talked about was new beginnings. It's, it's, that's what grief does is it takes away something so important, maybe the most important thing. So what can I put in not to replace it, but to you know, make me feel excited again, or make me feel interested again. So I know the word when you're depressed because grief isn't depression, and it's not PTSD, but it can cause those, right? But my favorite model for depression is Winston Churchill, because depression doesn't need to be a box that you go in and close the door. It can be how do I walk around this huge hole? Right? What some people can't. So that's why it's always okay to be where you are. But for me, it's to always keep trying. That was I have a I have a letter from my husband because I used to travel by myself and he would write me a letter. I always asked for a letter before I went away. And he said that one of the things that he most loved about me was that I helped other people, but that he would watch me fall down and get up again and keep trying. So that's what I do.

Brian Smith  1:03:44  
Yeah, well, you're doing a great job of it. I appreciate what you're doing. I appreciate your your the book sounds fantastic. I haven't read it yet, but I will definitely get a copy of that. I love the page. And you know, you were talking about the people prefer the bleak posts or the lighter posts. And I agree. It depends on it depends on the day depends on where I am the year when my that my daughter passed away, it was in the summer. And I walk every day and I was listening to the album that's just really, really sad. And the whole album is about death. And you know, and she wants to go with the person that's died. And I listened to that over and over and over again. I don't listen to it as that as much anymore. Because I'm not in that place anymore. But there's something weird about when we're in that place. It's like people listen to the blues. You listen to the blues, and you're sad because you don't want to feel alone.

Jan Warner  1:04:36  
Louis Armstrong has a song called In my solitude. I sit in my chair full of despair. I know I will go mad. And I love that song because it just described how I was feeling and I do feel that way still sometimes. But it's I do try and time limited. You know I still give myself times to just go to collapse, especially around certain days. I sort of build them in like, Artis birthday or the anniversary of his death when he first died. I totally isolated I couldn't deal with it. Oh, that was you were asking me about him sending signs. Because some people totally believe in science. Some people say they can't see them. The first birthday after he died, I bought a cupcake and I put a candle when I lit it. And I said, Okay, you have spirit, blow out the candle. Come on, come on, blow out the candle. And I was really hopeful. I mean, I really expected him to because he was a powerful guy to blow up again. And so I blew it out, ate the cupcake, and just picked up this random book and opened it. And then the front page was a letter from him, saying, If you don't believe I love you, I'm going to know don't be insecure, if you're insecure, I'm going to cry. Because you and I adore you. Now, maybe that was a coincidence, but it was a heck of a big one. And it was as if he was saying you thought you could control this. And make me blow out the candle. But you can't. But here's your note. So yeah, it's it's always very clear and very confusing at the same time.

Brian Smith  1:06:20  
I love what you said earlier about, you know, you're still doubting it and already sitting there going, okay, stop doubting it, you know, I can see the wheels turning as you're thinking about this, you're I think you're a lot like I am I'm, I'm a very rational person. Things happen. Like the other day I like I get, I get 1111 or 111. On my phone, I'll take a screenshot and I posted to Facebook, and I've few followers and Facebook and they think is really cool. So the other day, it was like 111. So I take the screenshot and looked at my phone, while the screenshots at 111. But the time on the phone said 110. And I showed my wife, I'm like, How is this possible? And then I've watched the phone go from 110 to 112. So I was like, and my daughter does stuff like that all the time, just like crazy stuff. And I'm like, I always wonder because I'm an engineer. I have a degree in Chemical Engineering. I'm like, How does this work? That she, you know, I don't that when I totally got me. I can't figure it out all.

Jan Warner  1:07:18  
We can't, or you don't have to. Yeah. But yeah, it's it's I yeah, I and my friends are used to it. I have new friends. Because not all the old friends stuck. But my friends are used to it because periodically not all the time, but we'll be having a conversation about something I'll just go oh already says, because I get that feeling that he wants to be part of it. So they don't say to me, what do you mean? RT says he's dead. They go. Oh, okay. And then they respond. But he's, I used to think that RT was the most alive dead person I knew until I started crucifix out and then I realized are dead. Somebody asked me do you joke with your dead? Which I love that question. But all of our dead people are alive to us. They don't die with their death. That's why it's so easy and so hard. It's so hard because we want them to be alive with us again so much. But it's so easy because we still have that love and that relationship is it Mitch album that says step into life but not a relationship.

Brian Smith  1:08:29  
Absolutely to well, Jan, I want you to let people know how they can how they can reach you.

Jan Warner  1:08:35  
Um, so I have different on Facebook. It's group speaks out, which is facebook.com/group speaks out. But I also Oh, I know what I said the last time which actually works. At this point. If you Google Jan Warner, and grief, a lot of stuff will come out. And I also give out my email, which is E Y e s e p ic@aol.com. I see pic, e y e s e p ic@aol.com. And we put grief or you let me know something in the subject matter. I might not answer you right away, but I will answer you. So I don't get that many responding to my email. But I'm perfectly willing to talk to people that way.

Brian Smith  1:09:22  
Great Again, thanks. Thanks for everything that you do. Thanks for being here today. The Facebook page is awesome. The book is awesome. You're doing great work. I know Artie is proud of you.

Jan Warner  1:09:34  
Thank you. I hope so. Alright, have a great rest of your day. Otters proud of you. So there you go.

Brian Smith  1:09:41  
Don't forget to like hit that big red subscribe button and click the notify Bell. Thanks for being here.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai