Microdosing for Grief: Heal and Reconnect with Your Loved Ones | Kayse Gehret | EP 482

WEBVTT

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Close your eyes and imagine.

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What if the things in life that caused us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges.

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Challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be.

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We feel like we've been buried, but what if, like a seed, we've been planted?

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And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree.

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Now, open your eyes.

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Open your eyes to this way of viewing life.

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Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature.

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This is Grief to Growth, and I am your host, Brian Smith.

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Welcome to Grief to Growth.

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I'm your host, Brian Smith, and whether this is your first time joining us or you've been a part of this community for a while, I'm glad you're here.

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This show is about helping you navigate life's most challenging moments and understand the deeper questions, things like who we are, where we came from, why we're here, and where we're going. Today, I'm joined by Casey Garrett.

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Casey is a pioneer in the healing arts and the founder of Microdosing for Healing, a global community spanning more than 30 countries.

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With nearly three decades of experience in holistic wellness, Casey created the professional microdosing facilitator program, the first of its kind, to train practitioners in safe and supportive microdosing practices.

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In this conversation, we'll explore how microdosing can support people navigating grief, loss, and difficult life transitions.

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Casey will share her own healing journey, including how she overcame a grand mal seizure through microdosing.

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We'll talk about building emotional resilience, addressing trauma, and finding spiritual connection during the times when we need it most.

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And we'll tackle some of the myths and misconceptions that surround this emerging practice, including the fears that keep many of us on the sidelines.

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So if you'd like to continue this conversation after the episode, head over to grief2growth.substack.com.

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You'll find a companion article there.

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You'll find a community of people discussing this.

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You can ask questions and get involved there.

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So with that, I'd like to welcome Casey Garrett.

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Hi. Hi, Brian.

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Thanks for having me.

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It's great to have you here, Casey.

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This is a subject I've been interested in for a while, so I'm really looking forward to having this conversation with you today.

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Tell me, how did you get started in microdosing?

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Yeah, happy to, unexpectedly, definitely.

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So I wanted to be a doctor growing up, my whole childhood.

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I've always been drawn to the health and wellness and healing of others, but I was on a very traditional path for many, many years.

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And then when I was 19 in college, I was called to move to California.

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I heard a very strong internal voice and followed that call.

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When I got there, I discovered, quote unquote, alternative healing.

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I studied Reiki, I studied bodywork, I went into hypnotherapy and did a lot of things unconventional, particularly at that time.

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And I'm so grateful then because it was exactly the preparation for the work I do today.

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I just didn't know it.

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Simultaneous to this, I developed a grand mal seizure disorder in my teens.

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It was really intense in my early 20s and I was largely medicated for it, even though doctors couldn't find any biological cause for it.

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So I was always very reticent to do any drug, let alone a psychedelic drug of any kind.

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However, fast forward years, I was on a yoga retreat and I met someone who introduced me to the concept of microdosing, which was taking a small sub-threshold dose of psilocybin mushrooms.

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I wouldn't go anywhere, nothing would happen.

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It was very gentle.

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And I didn't really know what to expect other than I thought it might be, you know, clarifying, I might have a deeper spiritual connection on the heels of many, many years of healing modalities in practice.

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And my seizure stopped.

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So I have not had a seizure since and I immediately developed a lot of other gifts, heightened connection with nature, deepening spiritual development, metabolized a lot of latent grief.

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Which I hear from a lot of people who work with psilocybin.

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I've done all the therapy.

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I didn't know there was more to do and turns out there was much more to do than I expected.

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So at the time I had healing arts studios in Northern California and then the pandemic happened.

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And so during the pandemic, we were in California, we were shut down for a very, very long time.

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We specialized in touch therapy in group classes.

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So we were kind of the first to close, last to open.

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And so originally back in 2020, I just started, I put together some microdosing programs online to help our community stay together, connected and bring something healing and community based to really tide us over until we could be together again.

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Not knowing that we were not going to reopen.

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I eventually ended up losing the studios and but this work carried on and over the last five years now six going into our sixth year.

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Now we've developed into global programs, a community, a podcast and different educational and training programs today.

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Oh, wow.

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That's that's quite a quite a journey.

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Thanks for sharing that.

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Now, when it comes to microdosing, you kind of touched on it.

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But for people that don't know and not familiar with that term, what is microdosing?

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Yes, if you're brand new to it in my sphere, microdosing is taking a small sub perceptual dose of usually a psychedelic medicine.

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Usually we're talking about psilocybin mushrooms, but we can also be talking about LSD, San Pedro cactus, traditionally known as what Shuma.

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And we also work with Amadine and mascara, which is the red mushroom with the little white dots, the kind of Christmas Christmas mushroom people know it as we work with all of those medicines.

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But typically my framing, I'm talking about psilocybin also known as magic mushrooms.

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Okay, thank you for that.

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So for me, just a little personal story.

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I mean, many years ago, a guy sent me a book, I was I was doing a lot of views on Amazon.

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He sent me this book out of the blue, what it mean to review, and he had gone to South America and done something called ayahuasca, which at that time, I had never heard of.

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I don't know how many people had sounded really fantastic in terms of having spiritual experiences stuff.

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But first of all, it sounded really scary to me.

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And the other thing is, I had to travel to South America to do it.

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So how is this similar or different from something like that?

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It is, I always describe the difference between microdosing psilocybin and ayahuasca is kind of like psilocybin mushrooms would be like learning your ABCs versus ayahuasca is like reading Ulysses.

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It's, it's like that's the mountaintop versus microdosing is kind of starting at the basics.

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So with microdosing, you're taking small sub threshold, it's really gentle, it's not destabilizing, you live your day to day life.

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So it's easier to kind of take it in bite sized pieces.

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It's much more similar to developing like a daily meditation practice or daily spiritual practice, prayers, contemplative practice versus like a high dose ceremonial experience of ayahuasca, psilocybin, magic mushroom journey, a high, a high dose experience, a high dose LSD journey.

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That's something that is absolutely not going to be some threshold that's going to take you out of your day to day reality, probably loosen your egos grip on your identity all together, you go into mystical realms and other liminal state.

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So it can be profoundly healing, but it's something that you definitely want to take your time and prepare for before doing it.

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Yeah, well, it's one of those things that like, I have the very kind of I'm prone to panic attacks and stuff like that.

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So when people were talking about this, I'm like, I could just see getting on this thing.

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And I would just freak out.

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And I had a friend that actually did a ayahuasca ceremony.

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She's similar personality.

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She goes, Oh, yeah, I did have a panic attack when I was doing I'm like, Yeah, I don't want that.

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So that's, that's something that's very scary to me.

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Yes, and I get I am wired that way, too.

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So microdosing really suited me.

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I see now it's it's perfect for me.

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And it's perfect for me to be sharing the practice because a lot of people who come to me do have a lot of fear.

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A lot of them are Gen X kids, baby boomer kids who kind of grew up with the stigma.

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I've all go crazy, I'll lose control, I'll lose my mind.

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I have a lot of stigma, I have a lot of fear.

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And so microdosing, I could really get behind because you're not losing control at all.

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It's a perceptual.

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And so a lot of the people I work with are beginners who they almost can't believe.

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They're like, I can't I'm so not the person to be doing this.

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Yeah, but it is actually beneficial for such a wide variety of things, physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, that most people will benefit from this.

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And you you don't have to deal with the fear factor.

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You do with the high dose experience.

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So what types of things is it beneficial for?

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Because I've heard of psilocybin and similar drugs being used for like for drug addiction and for PTSD and things like that.

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So what other things are those and what other things is it good for?

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Yeah, thank you for asking.

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It's so incredible.

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We focus primarily, you know, just because we live in a time where we're in a very pharmaceutical oriented culture.

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And so we focus on the mental health aspects and physical condition aspects of mushroom practice, which are profound and wide.

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So the top ones I've seen are definitely nervous system related.

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Anything due to nervous system dysregulation, we see a strong cessation of whether it's headaches, migraines, TBI, concussions, stroke recovery, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's dementia, anything that is rooted in dysregulated brain function as well as underlying nervous system dysregulation.

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But other things, too, that we don't automatically I think are linked to our nervous system, but actually are.

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So addictions, eating disorders, anything that is tied to a ruminative, looping mind, a very rigid mental pattern, which is what leads us to anxiety and depression.

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So the way we frame it is psilocybin is curative for anxiety and depression, when really, it's actually healing those things because it's bringing us into greater nervous system resilience and presence.

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Yeah. And again, when it comes to like ayahuasca and psilocybin, it's also been used for spiritual type of exploration.

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Does a micro dosing help with that as well?

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Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I my entire life, I have been very drawn to I lost my father when I was seven. And so at a very young age, I was very drawn to explore death and the afterlife and what happens and make sense.

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And it wasn't until I started working with mushrooms and intuition and energetic medicine, that I was really able to sink down into a felt understanding of these subjects.

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And so I have such a profound spiritual connection today that I don't think there was any other way possible of all the modalities I have worked with that would have led to where we are now without the assistance of psilocybin.

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Absolutely not.

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Did you start with a macro dose, I guess I would call it or did you start with micro dosing?

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I started with micro dosing. Yeah, I was very nervous and fearful about destabilizing my mind too much with the high dose experience. But this is true for a lot of people I work with. I came to micro dosing because I had that fear and I received such gifts and benefits just from micro dosing. And I just established a really strong trust in the medicine that I was led to journey.

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More deeply. So I micro does for quite a long time, longer than most before journey. But it was really when I did journey with the medicine that my spiritual connection really, really blew up and completely.

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Okay, that's interesting. So, um, yeah, I said, I've heard about this for various things are actually the journey aspect of it. But I've also heard some precautions about that some people that are it's not really good for and and I forgot who I was listening to that said, for the people that it works for, it's, it's good. But for other people, it could like blow you blow you open. So it's not for everybody to do the macro dosing, I guess.

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Yes, that's a really important point. I think two things that keep in mind that aren't really referenced too much with this work is one is psychedelics are non specific amplifiers. So they make you more of what you already are.

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So that's why set and setting and having support and resourcing is really important because if you're working from a place where you have a strong foundation, your resource, you have all the other lifestyle pieces in play, like you're going to have a much more supported experience than if you just kind of amplify what's currently going on in your life. So rather than thinking this is going to be a fix it like a pharmaceutical type fix it, it's actually going to make things more apparent first, as you're healing. And to your point, you just reflected on medicine, especially psilocybin and ayahuasca. They're going to show you the truth. My clients have said in some ways, it's big honesty, it's big truth. And so if you're someone who's been really working with yourself and understanding yourself, knows yourself, you are ready for that. And you're welcoming of that. But if they you haven't done any preparation, you haven't done that, you're not expecting that.

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And you step into a high dose journey, it can be very, very destabilizing.

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Yeah, I've heard that these plant medicines can be brutally honest. And, you know, sometimes people have what they call a good trip, which is pleasant. And sometimes it's less than pleasant.

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Yes, yes. But it's usually truthful.

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Yeah, yeah. So in terms of when when people are considering doing this, do you do therapy along with it? Or is there a preparation? How does that how does it work? There's terms of the protocol.

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So what I do and kind of my framing of it is we use the term guides. And I love the word guides, because it's kind of ancient. It's something I think that we how we used to hold healing a little bit differently in the past and different epochs. And it's also novel in this time.

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So it's kind of goes with the novelty of this work of holding it a little bit differently. Then we have and helping people orient that this is not going to be like a pharmaceutical experience. This is probably going to be like something you've never experienced before.

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It's kind of a new term for a new time. Also, coaching, therapy. It's really I've worked with so many thousands of people now. And yes, you can microdose on your own. And you'll probably get great benefits. I did when I was starting out.

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But it's just, it's so supportive. And it amplifies your practice if you have support in some capacity. And for some people, it might be doing it with yoga. Some of them people, it might be breath work, some people might be prayer, some people might be helpful to have a community and a guide.

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Some people thrive with one on one support. And other people love being in a small intimate group, or a large community. And so I think having some kind of support, depending on what you're working on and what your intention is, like, for example, somebody who's working on PTSD, or childhood trauma, and wants to work with psilocybin, they might be best served working with a therapist with that training, somebody else who's looking more for athletic performance, or work enhancement and career enhancements might be working with a coach in that context.

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So yeah, it's really diverse. And we've now trained 48 people through our microdosing guideship program. And I've been stunned by how diverse it is. We've had people from all backgrounds, we've had lots of clinicians and therapists and coaches and healers. But we've also had lots of corporate people, lots of HR directors, interestingly, who work with other people and people who just want to build this practice and be able to serve in this way to build community.

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And all the different facets of life.

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Wow, HR directors, that one really surprises me.

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Yeah, we've had we've had four now HR directors of sizable companies. Yeah, it's pretty fun.

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They're doing microdosing with their employees.

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They're not doing microdosing with their employees. But that's it as a guide, you're kind of guiding in all you do. So it's very, very different. It's lots of the therapists I've worked with. It's interesting, after they begin their own microdosing practice, they're like, I am such a bit much better therapist than I was before, because I am so much more dialed into my client, I have more empathy and connection for them, and I can serve my clients. And so it's not something that fits neatly into boxes. So a lot of people I think are just taking the training and having the experience to build their own capacity to serve in what they're doing, versus becoming something other than what they already are.

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Okay, so they're doing it more for their their own use to make them a better HR person or therapist or whatever.

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And then lots of times word gets out, which is probably the intention from nature's perspective. It's kind of like, what are the spores? When I look at it from nature's perspective, it was so interesting to see all these HR directors. And then I was like, Oh, well, from nature's perspective, what better way to populate yourself than to direct into the people people?

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Yeah, well, this is this is where I find this to be kind of really fascinating to talk with you about this particular subject. Because, you know, from the Western medicine point of view, we think of medicines as having biological impact that changes this receptor, it opens this up. What's your take on how do you think these plant medicines work? Is it is it mechanical or is it spiritual?

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Both. Absolutely both. Yeah, I think from a scientific perspective, how our understanding of these natural medicines is like a fraction what we're going to discover in the coming years, like we have studied them enough to we know what parts of the brain they impact. They quiet are like thinking very cognitive cerebral are zones of identity are fixed ways of thinking our patterns and opens up new pathways.

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It quiets part of the brain and activates other parts of the brain. So we know some but I think we only know a fraction of things we're going to come to understand and also the way the medicine works when you watch the way it works with people.

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It's so far beyond human intellect. I always remind people like mushrooms are coded with ancient ancient wisdom. So I mean, they've lived through five extinction events, they've been along, they've been around far longer than human beings have. They have a wisdom and intelligence within them. That's beyond us. And so sometimes I watch the way they work with people and they heal people. And it's very counterintuitive or just kind of strange. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?

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Like, why would it be doing, why would it be having this impact with somebody? But then six months later, we can look back and go, Ah, okay. That was the fastest way to get this person to where they needed to go. And then our human framing, we would have never predicted that.

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Yeah. I really, I think, this is, again, it's not only fascinating, but it's I feel like we're, we're kind of going back to the future, I guess is where I'm trying to think. It's like, because these, these medicines I remember, I was hearing about Alaska, and in this tribe in South America, they're like, well, they take this one plant, they mix it with another plant, they make this tea, and this releases DMT, and et cetera. And people are like, well, how did they know that? And then when they asked the shamans to say, the plant told us.

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Yes. Yeah. So I think it's, there is, to me, there's definitely something beyond just the mechanical. There is, and people, and I remember hearing somebody, I forgot who it was, which planet was, this guy was taking people somewhere in South America, and they would, they would give them on the planet journey, and they would look up and they'd see these beings like walking up this mountain. And the thing that was really interesting is everybody saw the same beings. So it wasn't like, you know, it was an individual hallucination. There's something where it's kind of opening the veil, I guess is the way I would put it.

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Yes. Yes. And I love your back to the future. Because that's exactly what it is. A lot of it is us remembering a lot of people I know who are new to microdosing when they start doing it, they come in going, okay, I'm ready for this to experience and learn from the medicine that's going to be different. But then once they start, they're like, it's new. But there's also something strangely familiar about this. Like, I feel like I've done this before.

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And a lot of people share that. And we have done it before. I mean, the current culture that we're in, like this epoch that we're in right now, is not us at our finest.

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This is not our finest hour. We've done better in the past. And I think we're moving into a time, it's really exciting, where we're remembering kind of these codes within us are starting to awaken. And I think that the part of the reason why nature is kind of coming forth in this way is it's a key to help us activate some of these codes and remembrances that we used to be able to do and create amazing things with our minds. Things that we can't even quite comprehend yet.

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Yeah, that's, that's something I say all the time. You know, I think the biggest problem in the world is we forgotten who we are. We don't know who we are. We don't know where we came from. We don't know why we're here. All those things that are really important to living a fulfilled fulfilling life. And I do again, start seeing some of the stuff kind of break through as as Western people kind of say, Okay, well, maybe this does make some sense. It's not just all you know, superstition. Yes, yes. I have a lot of people in the US who come to practice because they read the research, you know, or they read the book, and they're like, I have my memories going. And they're like, I'm not really into this woo woo stuff. Yeah. I just want to remember my grandkids names again. And it's so fun to watch them because no matter what people come from, ultimately, they get all of the gifts. And so to watch them not only become, you know, more mentally aligned and more articulate, but also spiritually connected, more empathetic, more compassionate, better relationships, better outlook on life, and kind of more vitality to their being. Whatever you come for, you wind up getting more than you more than he came for you. So has there been studies on micro dosing? Is there is there any science, you know, scientific backing for it? So with psilocybin high dose experiences, yes, this research has been absolutely incredible. Micro dosing is a little tough to study in the traditional scientific studies, the double blinded, because it's so subtle, it's sub perceptual, and also you're going about your day to day life. So you can like in a high dose psilocybin experience, you can isolate somebody in a lab for eight hours, and study the results. If you're studying micro dosing protocol, say over six weeks or a month, you can isolate someone for six weeks and minimize the variables. And so it's really, really hard to blind for that and do a double blind traditional scientific study.

00:25:59.009 --> 00:26:47.229
The studies that have been done, particularly around LSD have been significant, but they quote unquote have not conclusively proven micro dosing beyond placebo, which is true for a lot of the it was a lot of the pharmaceutical drugs, by the way. However, I secretly, well, not so secretly shared it with you. I secretly am not in a rush for science to prove that micro dosing works, because I feel like as soon as science and inconclusively proves that micro dosing works, that's when pharmaceutical companies are going to move in as quickly as possible, isolate the molecules and patent this as a drug prescription. And they don't belong there.

00:26:48.229 --> 00:27:41.089
They don't, they're, they're so far beyond what a manmade synthetic pill can offer. And I feel like the, the systems that we hold healing in in the West right now, which is very isolated, it's very individual, it's take this pill, go home, and there's no relational support is proven itself not to work. And so same thing, if you just take micro doses, and you go off and you isolate, and you don't do anything else along with it, it's likely not to work either. It's really these other models and the framing that we're creating real time that are peer to peer that are relational, that are small groups that you get to be together with other people in relationship held in a container of support beyond just taking a substance. That's what's most effective. And so I kind of hope it's it's quite a while before science proves anything.

00:27:41.749 --> 00:27:49.929
Yeah, I love that. That's a really interesting perspective. I read a book, I read it actually a couple times. It's really fascinating book called Lost Connections by Johann Hari.

00:27:50.889 --> 00:28:23.569
I don't know if you're familiar with it. But he wrote this book about antidepressants, SSRI specifically, and not to trash them all, because it's like they're effective for some people for some amount of time. But they're not effective for everybody. And over time, they don't typically, you know, stay effective. And he's the it's called Lost Connections, because they found that like people just start working together in groups and get out and do all the isolating things that we do, that that can help with a lot of these things.

00:28:23.869 --> 00:28:32.689
So I love the idea of like this, it's a it's not either or it's not the medicine or becoming un isolated, but it's actually doing both.

00:28:34.009 --> 00:28:49.289
You're absolutely right. Yeah, they did a study a while back of what actually is the most effective thing for depression, of all the things one can do, pharmaceutical interventions and lifestyle interventions. And you know what the number one thing was number one effective thing was dancing.

00:28:49.969 --> 00:29:33.269
Dancing? Wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't have guessed dancing. But I can't say that really surprises me. It was funny, because in this book, he tells a story about there, these Western doctors go to somewhere in the east, and they're like, we've got this thing called antidepressants. And they explained to the people that they are. And they go, well, we have that too. And they said, What do you mean? And they tell a story about a guy who lost his foot, and he was depressed. And he was working in a job where he couldn't really function that well. So they bought him a dairy cow and became a dairy farm. And then the guy was like, he was happy. And they said that's antidepressants. And we look so much sometimes for like a mechanical or chemical aspect to why we feel so anxious and depressed, where a lot of times it is it is a lifestyle thing.

00:29:34.809 --> 00:30:25.509
Yeah, especially now, especially right now, in our kind of overculture and society, it's like, there's no pill in the world that can solve for our environment, you know, and our overcoach Lord. And so I think that's what one of the things it's what I'm training new guides, it's harnessing the novelty of these medicines to open our minds and to take into account what are all of these ecological factors going on, environmental factors going on in a person's life, because until we start to take that into account, you know, we have been just treating people kind of like a brain and putting all of the responsibility for someone's inability to cope with life on the individual. Right. When there's so many other systemic things that are not taken into account that I believe we are going to be taking into account here forward.

00:30:26.389 --> 00:33:25.489
So we've been talking about a lot of different things that that this could help with. And most of the people listening to my program are either in grief or have been in grief. And we talk about grief. And you mentioned the grief of your passing your father. So first of all, I say I'm sorry that, you know, that was your experience. So how would this help with someone in grief? Thank you. I this this particular topic is very, very close to my heart of all I work with lots of people for lots of diverse reasons. But this is among my favorite people to work with and support and serve. Because grief, especially I worked with a lot of people who've lost a loved one, I've worked with a lot of people who've lost children, which is one of the most challenging experiences I think for any human being to go through it was the loss of a child. And so many people do all the things they do all the programs, they do all the modalities, and they do a lot of talk therapy. But they're like, I can only get to a certain point. And that was my experience too is I intellectually understood the loss of my father and the impact it held. But I felt like I got to a certain point that I could get beyond. When you work with psilocybin, what psilocybin of all the medicines is really incredibly masterful at is metabolizing grief in the body. And so a lot of people weep and cry and the function of tears and crying and its role in shedding grief is tremendously important to our metabolizing of grief. And also lots of us lots of people who work with psilocybin have had a lot of talk therapy and shed a lot of tears already. And they're like, I had no idea I had so much more. I had so much more. And so people will do a journey sometimes and just weep, weep for hours upon hours. And while it's not the most comfortable sensation, when you come through it on the other side, it's almost like you feel like that catharsis where you're like rung out of so much heaviness, and you just feel lighter. And with that lightness, I have come to understand like our spiritual connection is always there for us, our lost loved ones, our angels, our guides, our connection to the divine are always there. But oftentimes, it's our grief and our pain body, our density in our human form that prevents us from really having and experiencing that connection to the full capacity that we can. So as people I witness people move through grief and shed layers of density have these cathartic releases, energetic releases, they develop a heightened spiritual connection to source. And that's what shifts everything. It's like having that embodied felt sense that goes beyond the intellectual mind. So you're not instead of like thinking our way to healing, we're actually experiencing a felt sense of healing and connection.

00:33:26.569 --> 00:33:38.289
That's so peaceful. A lot of people come to a place of peace with their loss and their grief that they didn't have and probably could not have access through any other way.

00:33:38.829 --> 00:34:17.670
Wow. Wow. I what you just said just really blew me away. I love I love that. I love what you like you the phrase use metabolizing grief, because that is something a lot of us we fight the grief, we want to get rid of the grief, we want to stuff the grief. And I would say to people, we have to let this move through us and the tears are cathartic, you know, crying is not a bad thing, you want to let that that move through you. So I love the way that you put that and the other thing I think is really important is for us to really work with our grief, we have to have that spiritual connection to to our higher self to our source to to our loved one who's still with us.

00:34:17.670 --> 00:34:34.170
And when you said that that heaviness, that denseness, because people will say, well, why can't I get that connection? Why can't I make that connection? And a lot of times, because there's so much density and so much pain that we're holding on to, that it's there, it's always there, but just can't feel it.

00:34:34.829 --> 00:34:42.530
Yes. Yeah, I think that the two things that block people the most are fear are grief and fear.

00:34:42.530 --> 00:34:59.190
Yeah. The other one, the more fear we hold in our bodies, the more we block the natural connection to source that we have. Yeah, so this is a way I guess we could think of it for us woo people, which I don't I don't mind being I am a chemical engineer, I'm a scientific person.

00:35:00.030 --> 00:35:34.869
The word woo. It only bothers me a little bit, because I think of what we call supernatural is just what we can't explain yet. And so this this stuff isn't woo woo. It's not magic. It's it's real. But it's just beyond what we've accepted at this point. But you know, from one woo woo person to another, I think this allows people to make that connection, which is what if that's the key to everything, is remembering who we are making our connection back and understanding the bigger picture, which we're really blocked by with this little brain that filters everything out.

00:35:36.769 --> 00:37:26.969
Absolutely true. And once you whether it's in a psychedelic journey, or it's in a dream, sometimes for people or people have a near death experience to once you tap into a felt sense that there's something else. You can't unsee that. Yeah, after that. And so once you really know in your bones that our soul is everlasting, and we go on. And you really can see in these experiences that this is just my soul having this experience in this lifetime, for these lessons that I came here, this path that I am here to do. And you forever shift your sense of time, and realize, you know, I think, not that I would love to have my father here with me in this lifetime, I would absolutely love that and still miss him. But I feel just as close to him now, as the spirit, then I then I do if he was here in human form, because I've developed that capacity and released a lot to enable that connection to be there. And so I think it changes your perspective fundamentally on loss and grief. Because you realize it, nothing ever really ends, it just changes. Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting, because I've interviewed probably a couple 100 people who've had near death experiences. And sometimes I'll be talking to someone, they'll say, well, I wish I could have an NDE, then I would know everything I need. No, I'm like, well, don't ever wish you could have an NDE, because I've talked to a lot of people, they're like, I do not recommend it. It's traumatic. And again, going back to even the macro dosing of some of these plant medicines, for some people, it can really mess you up, it could, you know, you might not ever be the same again, you know.

00:37:27.469 --> 00:39:07.549
So I love the idea of a maybe a little like a little window, you know, a little a little peak that that we could do with the micro dosing. Yes, yes. And all I think things done, when we do things slowly and intentionally and thoughtfully, they also they can sink in, and they last longer, and they're easier to integrate. I mean, one of the challenges with psychedelic work in high doses is sometimes people have these big truths and epiphanies, and they're like, I have been living so far off my blueprint, I need to change everything all at once. And then part of the guidance becomes, yes, you are there, but all the people in the rest of your life and all the scaffolding and architecture that you have created up until now aren't quite there yet. And so that's why I love to have people come to these awarenesses and epiphanies gradually over time, so that you can kind of build and rebuild and reorient your life in a thoughtful way, not just for yourself, but all the other people who are presently in your reality. Exactly. Because people that have NDEs, for example, near death experiences, they have a high divorce rate, sometimes they have a high rate of depression, they it takes seven to 14 years to integrate that experience. And I've talked to people who have read about and talked to people who have done, again, some of these plant medicines, and they might have some big experience and then they come back questioning like everything, which is not really a great way to integrate these things. And so again, the idea of taking small steps and allowing ourselves to absorb this slowly seems like a wise approach to me.

00:39:09.009 --> 00:39:49.129
Thank you. Yeah, I think the vast majority of people benefit by this preparation time. And I've studied a lot of ancient cultures and the way they have held medicine practice in different epochs and civilizations. And I am Greek, so I got really went down the rabbit hole of the in Eleusis, over 2000 years, they had a psychedelic sacrament once a year. And everyone knows about the Eleusinian mysteries and has heard of them in the field. But a lot of people don't know that they actually began in earlier in the year, and they were something called the lesser mysteries.

00:39:49.809 --> 00:40:15.089
And so the lesser mysteries began in February each year, and they began the cycle of purification and preparation kind of getting the mind body spirit ready for this larger experience. And then in September is when the great mysteries were held. And that makes a lot of sense to me, you know, Westerners are very impatient. Yeah, we want everything done in 30 days, or less.

00:40:17.049 --> 00:40:53.150
And I think we have such much more of a profound experience, a more easily integrated experience, if we take the time to set ourselves up with a special period of time where we're kind of cleansing our body and spirit and getting ready. Yeah, I think that's, that seems like a wise approach to me. I'm also now thinking because I know I've heard some therapists and doctors are working with people with psilocybin and some other plant medicines. But what in terms of the legality of people like getting ahold of micro doses? Is that how does that work?

00:40:53.650 --> 00:44:17.929
It's still a thing. It's still a thing. And so it's technically still illegal in most of the world. And it's unfortunate because the healing potential is unbelievable. When people step into the work, it becomes so absurd, like how in the world did this ever become illegal, because it's not only so healing, it's so safe. And it makes it tends to make people more compassionate, more peaceful, more other oriented, like all the things that we need in our society the most right now. It blesses us with so it's really unfortunate and hopefully very people powered and changing. And so going back in the 50s and 60s, there was a lot of psychedelic research being done in academia. But unfortunately, simultaneous to that, there was a lot of political upheaval, it was very similar to what we are going through right now. And the Nixon administration strategized that by making these substances illegal and criminalizing them, they could drive a wedge into the population. And so it was all political machinations is why these substances were made illegal in the first place, even though they do not qualify for any of the regulations that a schedule one substance would qualify for. And unfortunately, our laws take longer to undo than they do to do. And so this movement has been so people powered, and people led. And it's just enough collective people going, I'm not waiting for the government to give me permission to heal. I can't imagine my life today. And my phys on every level of my health, if I was told I couldn't do this practice. And so, to some extent, people have to be willing to have the courage to go, I'm going to do this. Regardless of what my local law says, that said, it's wise to be careful, and responsible and safe. Microdosing for personal use is a lot different than kind of distributing, having distribution and things going. Thankfully, there's more and more organizations have religious protections, and sacramental use protections. And so when we first started back in 2020, I had a partner who made cultivation kits that made kits for everybody. So you could learn how to grow your own medicine at home. It's actually really easy and cost effective to grow your own medicines, kind of like growing your own herb garden in your own home. And so you can grow your own medicines is one way to do it and stay relatively private. Today, though, there are thankfully enough of organizations who are making high quality, high integrity medicines, and able to distribute nationwide through religious protections. So thankfully, people, I mean, you still are taking on some degree of risk, depending on where you live. But thankfully, finding sources is much easier today than it was even five years ago. Okay, that's interesting guy. Because I mentioned mushrooms one time on Facebook, a couple of years ago, a couple of my friends, like, Oh, yeah, you should do it. And there's a place you can go, I guess you get the spores are not illegal, I guess. So you could get the spores and grow your own. Is that correct?

00:44:18.549 --> 00:44:30.589
Strangely enough, yes. And now I think all but three states, you can you can legally purchase spores. Yes. So to the mushrooms are legal, but the spores are legal.

00:44:30.969 --> 00:45:01.389
Yeah, it's, you know, the whole drug thing is really interesting to me for, you know, alcohol is legal marijuana for so many years was not legal. You know, and then marijuana now that the government feels feels like they make money off of it is, you know, legal, a lot of places. And in terms of I heard LSD, the army or the military looked at it a lot. And they don't like the fact that it may ever everybody connected. It's like, it's kind of hard to get people go out and shoot each other. And when they realize we're all one, you nailed it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

00:45:02.329 --> 00:46:06.129
It makes you question the status quo, you're more likely to think for yourself. You're more likely to trust yourself and come to your own inner knowing versus the top down fear based narrative that the current structure is reliant upon keeping for us to stand. So it kind of turns everything on its on its head. Yeah. So we have to ask ourselves when something is legal or illegal, you know, what are what are the reasons behind that, you know, and and does this does this make sense? Again, I think there's been a very materialistic and I think there's been a very materialist drive in our in our society and everything. And this is kind of like, again, like you just said, allowing, allowing people to think for themselves and think outside the box and not maybe stay on the hamster wheel and all the other things that, you know, that the forces in power want to keep us doing. It's very disruptive in the most beautiful way.

00:46:07.170 --> 00:46:18.989
That's why I believe that's why it's still illegal in most of the world. Yeah. So Casey, what is your organization? I know you train people to, to practice, I guess, plant medicine.

00:46:19.389 --> 00:46:43.629
So tell me exactly what you guys do. Yeah. So we kind of evolved based on what people needed and were asking for. So when we first started, we did group programs, which are still I've had, I've tested lots of different ways to experience microdosing. And my favorite by far is small intimate group work. So we would have eight to 12 people in a group. Our process was six weeks long.

00:46:44.289 --> 00:47:52.769
Some people choose to do eight weeks or three months, but it's powerful. Small group work is so powerful. And I witnessed, you know, what would take somebody one to one, six months to experience. People were moving through their process in six weeks. When you have an intentional group focus and you have each other to reflect and share together, lots of them wanted to stick together after the six weeks. So we created a community, which is now a global community as sourcing expanded. So could we expand? And so we welcome people from all over the world into kind of a lighter touch community so that people always have a touch point. We gather two to three times every month where people can come and meet the guides and ask real world questions from experienced people. Then we created a podcast in 2023 so that that was when the field really opened up and psychedelic science got very popular. There were more research and academic studies, but the narrative got very focused on the clinical side of things and the very pharmaceutical mental health side of things. And so I started the podcast to feature lots and lots of guides that have been doing this work underground for many, many years for a wide variety of things.

00:47:52.769 --> 00:49:24.069
So I just gave people a voice to speak to the different areas of practice than the mainstream narrative might be sharing. And then we were going into our third cohort now of our training program, which is to teach people who've had a really personal personally powerful experience with medicine, who want to serve other people and become a guide, a coach, a therapist who has this modality as a skill. Okay, yeah, that's that's great. So when you say groups, are these virtual groups or these in person groups? Our groups are all virtual. But a lot of the guides I have worked with in my in my training program are creating lots of different frameworks. Some of them are creating hiking groups that go hiking together and have their integration calls on the hiking trail. Other people are doing it more of a retreat format in person, doing men circles, women circles, veterans group circles. So it's really beautiful to watch all the innovation of the way that the groups can come together and form. But really, the relational aspect of healing is one of the most powerful things that I think the medicine is just facilitating. It's kind of what brings people together. But it's the togetherness is actually the stronger of the healing component sometimes. Wow. So you mentioned earlier that some of the benefits that you've seen from the plant medicine, what would you if someone said, because you said it sounds like it's kind of all encompassing, but how would you describe the benefits you've gotten?

00:49:25.750 --> 00:49:41.629
I shared some of the physical condition things. I also think people would lots of times people are called to medicine practice or discover it some it seems accidentally or serendipitously.

00:49:41.629 --> 00:51:02.190
But looking back, lots of them can see that the medicine found them right before they were about to go through a huge change in transition in life, like they didn't know it's three months later, they're going to be losing their job, or getting or leaving a relationship or letting go of something that they knew wasn't aligned, that they were having trouble. And it's really interesting how often that has happened. And so I really think at this pivot point that we're all in collectively, when all of the old is revealing it to be so toxic or dysfunctional at best. And we're having to create all new systems and framework and really reorienting to an entirely new way of life. I think it's provides people with this inner sense of connection and self trust to help carry us through change and transition. The next few years are going to be so volatile. And it requires so much of letting go of everything we have known. So that we may bring our creativity to the future and start to build new systems and frameworks. And so I think in people's individual lives, too. That's another thing medicine is profoundly good for is like helping us build and develop the resiliency and the emotional capacity to create change in our lives.

00:51:02.190 --> 00:51:20.469
Yeah. And as you said, that's that's going to be or that is so needed right now. So for someone someone listening and thinking this might be something that I would think about or might be good for me. What what types of questions should they ask themselves? What types of questions would you ask someone if they said I'm interested in this?

00:51:21.609 --> 00:52:07.849
Great question. So lots of our offerings were created to speak to this person. So I think educating yourself and empowering yourself with education and confidence building is the number one thing you can do at the outset is sometimes people go down the rabbit holes on the internet and get really overwhelmed because there's so much information and misinformation out there. So we put together just you can go binge watch the podcast and learn a lot from that. People have been doing this work for a while. You can step into our community and learn. But in terms of your readiness for practice, if you've already done a lot of other healing work, group work, therapy, contemplative practice, yoga, most people have laid a foundation to do this work.

00:52:08.529 --> 00:52:36.949
If you have not done any work, that's not to say you can't do it. But I encourage people to take the time to understand what the work is. It's not like another pill. If you think it's going to be like Prozac or Lexapro, it's absolutely not going to be that way. So to start to orient yourself around what healing actually looks like versus what we've been conditioned to believe. Yeah.

00:52:37.289 --> 00:52:43.690
And I also invite people lastly to check in with like your level of capacity in your life.

00:52:44.069 --> 00:53:34.509
Um, are you wanting to escape your life? Right? Is life so uncomfortable right now that you're looking for something to save you or to take you away from your life? That's not a good reason to practice with earth medicines. Because even though we've been trained to think that's what a drug experience is, that's where psilocybin is so different. Like psilocybin more than anything brings you home to yourself. Yeah. And so if your circumstances are really, really, really tough. So for example, one that I see sometimes as people will come to me, and they've just lost their cherished beloved pet, or they've just lost a spouse. And they're kind of really raw with grief in this moment. And sometimes they're like, well, mushrooms help me move through this.

00:53:35.069 --> 00:54:24.750
And for some people are able to hold the capacity and resourcing to move through that. But some are so raw emotionally, that you need to get to a different set point, right before you can work with your grief. I mean, many of your listeners who have moved through are it or moving through big portals of grief right now know exactly what I'm talking about. And so good question to ask yourself is like, in my current present day life, could I tolerate feeling more and more emotional than I already am? And if the answer is yes, that's great, then you're probably fine. But if you're like, No, not right now, not quite yet. It's probably better to start with some lifestyle modalities first, and then layer in the medicine when you're at a different set point.

00:54:24.750 --> 00:55:23.029
Yeah, thank you. That's, that's a great answer. So I was gonna ask you the experience, I mean, we can, I don't know, but I can imagine what the experience of like an ayahuasca trip is, or an LSD trip, or something like that. What's the experience like of microdosing? What am I going to notice? Is it something? Yeah, what's it gonna feel like? Yes, I love this question. So it's, it's in one hand, it's hard to describe, because it's so subtle, and it's so gentle. And people are like, does that mean I'm not going to feel anything? Well, no, it doesn't mean that. So typically, I've seen people in the first week, the most common experiences people within the first day or two, notice kind of an uplift, and just life seems a little brighter. It's almost like if you turn the dial of your life up in your life vibrancy, just your senses come back online, like your sense of taste and your sense of touch and the way the light catches your eye nature kind of pops.

00:55:23.650 --> 00:56:26.569
I remember my experience my first day, I was inside, because I had no idea what I was doing, or what to expect, or what to talk to about it. And so I just was inside. And I was like, okay, I don't, you know, I feel good, I feel a little uplifted, but I don't really notice it that much. And I was living in Sausalito, California at the time, and I remember opening my front door to go walk my dog. And as soon as I opened my door, I could I could smell and taste the salt from the bay in the air. I could smell my neighbor's jasmine from like four blocks away, wafting through the air, it was real, I was like, okay, something's happening. And so your senses come back online, you kind of your instincts, your intuition, your creativity, lots of people, this is an interesting one too, in the first week, lots and lots of people report, they lose procrastination. Hmm. They just start doing the things like they'll come in and go, gosh, I need to like organize my desk forever. And I just did it, I was just called to do it.

00:56:26.670 --> 00:56:39.750
And I did it. And so life takes on a different flow. And you move from a place where you're thinking your way through the day, versus feeling and flowing your way through the day.

00:56:41.109 --> 00:57:13.629
So that's those are the things that I hear most commonly in the first week. Okay. And so with something like grief, and assuming someone's done the work, or they're the place, I mean, we talked about this is not an instant thing you're going to take, you're going to take a hit, and you're going to be fixed. But is it is it typically weeks, months, when people start to notice that the griefs lifting? Or how long does that? And I know there's no typical answer, I can't believe I'm asking this question. But people are going to want to know like, do I take this for a week and I'm over it? Or how does this work?

00:57:14.289 --> 00:57:34.969
Totally, totally. No, it's a great question. And I've witnessed enough people now working with grief is typically it comes with a lot of tears at the front end. Which lots of your listeners are like, of course it does. Of course it does. But a lot of times I've worked with people.

00:57:35.569 --> 00:58:04.909
And they're like, they've already done a lot of work and a lot of therapy and a lot of crying, but they're like, they get down to these deeper layers and dreams. And so we start to metabolize things in our sleep and our dream life. And just tears like shedding tears during the day where you you're not upset about anything present day, but you can just feel these are old, these are old tears falling. And then people notice the shift in new awarenesses.

00:58:04.969 --> 00:58:22.989
New. I would say that the most common things I've seen with people who've lost a loved one, particularly people who've lost children is as you lose density, the density and heaviness of grief, their spiritual connection lights up their connection to animals and the natural world.

00:58:23.589 --> 00:58:50.750
And oftentimes people notice like nature and spirit uses the natural world to bring messages of connection. So almost always the people I've worked with, they have in the first few weeks of microdosing, they're crying and they're releasing a lot, but they also have, it was so strange. I was outside having my breakfast tea and this hawk came and just sat on the chair like right next to me. And I just didn't have any fear of me at all.

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So lots of birds often because birds are the spirit messengers between, they go be between the worlds. And so they start to have this. And then a lot of them have more direct signs of their lost loved one that they can finally hear. It's not that they haven't been around. They're like, gosh, I all of a sudden like I could smell, I could smell my son's presence and his like the way his hoodie always smelled. And I could feel him in the car and it was his message came through and a felt presence. And that's what enables them to come to a different sense of peace. And completion isn't the right word because we're never completely as there's always more, but a new sense of completion in the cycle of grief that they have been experiencing. Yeah, the way that you phrase that is so, so profound, so great because I work with people and we're really, really working hard in this intellectual understanding and studying and reading books and listening to podcasts and all that stuff. But it's getting that felt connection that can be a difficult thing to overcome. And as you said, the spirit connection, spirit is always out there, but sometimes we're too dense. I had someone, she had a near-death experience and I love the way she described it. She said, imagine your loved ones trying to get back to you and you're like underwater under under the ocean. And the deeper you go, the higher the pressure. So your loved one might be very skilled, but they just can't quite get down to where you are. And that's what I hear. When I hear you give, I feel like it's like lifting us up. So we're closer to being able to make that connection. Absolutely, absolutely. And they'll continue to, they try in different ways. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

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Yeah. One, I have so, so many amazing stories of experiences like this where spirit is talking to people and sometimes we just don't, that's why the group can be really powerful too, because it can be obvious to really other people. Sometimes not to us, but we had a woman who was in a six week microdosing experience and right from the start, the start spirit was talking to her and things were happening immediately. And a couple of weeks into her microdosing experience, her community had this freak storm. It was like one of those tornadoes that doesn't touch all the way down to the ground, but it just comes down. And she, she came to the call one day and she was really, really upset and sad that week. And she said, I'm so bummed. We had this freak weather event and the rest of the house and the neighborhood was untouched, but it came into my yard and it clipped one tree. It took the top half of one tree off. And I'm so sad because that was the tree my father had planted for me when it was, when I bought this first home, it was my first home. And this many years ago, my father planted this tree with me and she was really upset about this when what was happening was her father was trying to speak to her and he was choosing, he was choosing the one thing in her life that she would absolutely without a doubt know it was him communicating with her. And after that, she shifted things and he was much more able to communicate with her and show her things and her intention for practice her particular intention she had shared was she was really stepping into the second chapter of this lifetime and was feeling fearful and was looking for spiritual support to get it and what she received was a whole lot more from her ancestors as well.

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That is a great story because it illustrates not only the fact that she was her father was able to reach her in that sense, but the sometimes spiritual blindness that we have, I'll be working with clients and they'll say, I don't get any signs, I don't get any whatever. And then they'll immediately start telling me about a sign that they got. And I'm like, well, you just said, you know, you don't get signs or other than this crazy dream where, you know, and it's like, you know, I get so this, this allows us to and then the group thing actually helps to validate those things because people can say, Oh, yeah, I didn't see that. 100%. 100%. Yeah, almost every call we always laugh at our group experiences because every single call we do, there's always one person in the group that starts off the call with like, nothing really happened this week. And then other other people share and they're like, actually, can I go again? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's well, again, that's one of the reasons why community is really important because I know for me, again, I'm being a I'm an engineer and the skeptic skeptical kind of person stuff. And I didn't believe in synchronicities or signs or any of that stuff. And I realized something that we discount, you know, if we're not in the community that will validate those things for us.

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And some of them are pretty miraculous. And so it's opening up to that possibility. And again, I think this, you know, the micro dosing and the plant medicine can help kind of help us lift to that level where we can, you know, really start to ground that in.

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Mm hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Other people all share this too, because I imagine a lot of people listening are moving through grief experiences. Another thing that happens is lots of times people start micro dosing, they have big powerful dreams. So they'll have ancestors and loved one to come right speak to them in their dreams. But also there's this beautiful window of time when the veil is quite thin between like 3am and 5am. So lots of times people will start waking up at this time. And they're like, it's really annoying waking up every night at three 30. And if we don't know this, that this is actually a special time that spirit is really available to us to move through us during those hours. It's actually a sacred time. It's why monks and nuns would often wake up that early and start morning prayers at that time. So lots of time if your intention is to connect with your angels and your guides and your ancestors, that's when you wake up. And that's a time to really be present and pray and it'll come to you. I was gonna ask you about dreams and you answered that and I also noticed that yeah, waking up between three and five in the morning, as you start to seek spiritual stuff, it'll happen more and more often. And that's when you get your best inspiration. That's when you get your ideas. That's it. I don't know why it is but that that's definitely been my experience too.

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Yes, yes. Yeah. So Casey, remind people of how they can reach out to you. And we talked about what you provide but how can people reach you? Yes, easy is all at microdosingforhealing.com. We have everything in one place so you can kind of cruise around and find your point of access that suits you lots and lots of podcasts to listen to if you're a podcast person. Lots there for you and then our community too is a great place to pop in if you want real connection with real humans to learn about the experience. There's a lot of people who've been in there for five years now and there's always new people that are just starting in practice. So it's very warm and embracing. So everyone is welcome. Yeah, I actually I love the work that you're doing. So thanks for doing that. Thanks for sharing it with me today. Anything that I didn't ask you that you that you would like to get across?

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No, just gratitude, gratitude for the opportunity. You know, so many people coming to practice shared that they heard about it on podcast. Yeah. So really, I think where we're at right now, especially here in the US is all of our news quote unquote news is so filtered and censored and kind of created by an algorithm. Yeah. And so I just appreciate you and your community and having this forum to talk because it really is the best, clearest way for us to communicate and share at this point. So thank you. Great. Thanks for being here today. Have a great afternoon.

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Bye.