On the Path to Forgiveness: An Inspiring Story of Love, Loss and Resilience

Hey everybody, this is Brian. I'm back with another episode of Reef to Growth. Today I've got a really interesting story for you by a woman who goes by Naya and, because of the nature of her story, she's chosen to remain anonymous. But she does want to share this story with you because it's really important to learn about complicated grief, unresolved conflict, forgiveness, all those things. When it comes to dealing with things when we lose someone. That's complicated. So Naya is 60 years old, she lives in Denmark, she works as a translator and again, we're going to talk about complicated grief, unresolved business with a deceased love when this case happens to be her husband and working through that towards forgiveness and peace of mind. So, with that short introduction, I'd like to introduce you to Naya. So, naya, if you would please tell me the story of what happened with you and your husband.

Well, it is a long story. What happened was, let's see, six years ago almost, my husband had, well, he had been feeling a little bit ill and went through some tests and we thought he was going to have a gallstone operation. And then they just did one final scan and we were going to have resorts of that and I decided to go with him. And I remember, just before leaving the house I glanced at myself in the mirror and I had this strange feeling of is this before? Because maybe a premonition, I don't know? They had postponed our appointment time and I thought that was strange. Anyway, we went there and to the hospital and he was told that he had cancer and it was progressed and we should come back one week later to hear if it was operable. And it turned out it wasn't, it was incurable. And he asked them so I'll die from this? And they said yes.

So the thing is, from the very beginning there was kind of no hope in terms of maybe he could recover. There was no hope at all. And this was a shock, of course, and it was a shock in three ways. First thing was the obvious thing. I mean, he was 55 at the time and to me. Of course I'm going to lose the love of my life and how are we going to cope with this? And the second thing that really was a shock to me in the middle of this was his reaction. He totally panicked and I mean, I can understand that you panic in some degree at this news and I think maybe his huge panic had to do with One week you think you're going to have a gallstone operation. Seven days later you're told you got cancer. Seven days later you're going to die from it. So he kind of felt that I'll be dead in a second kind of thing.

And I want to talk a little bit about this anxiety and panic because it's kind of the backdrop you have to remember that backdrop from what else happened. He described this fear we called it compared to once he had been fine, he hated fine, and there's been some turbulence and like for maybe a minute or a half he had truly believed that he was going to die, they were going to crash and he said it's like that, it's just it doesn't stop. It's all the time I have this feeling and that's quite some anxiety. And we were kind of living hour by hour. I mean, something happens to time when you're in a state like that, like three hours can feel like a day, because there are 10,000 thoughts racing through your mind an hour and there's so much to cope with, and I, of course, wanted to be there for him. And that meant, I mean, when you were with someone so anxious and such fear and fright, and it was tremendous. And okay, he got some pills to kind of take, the antidepressant or anti-anxiety pills. Those kind of pills take some weeks to work.

So this state was really, it was everything, and I tried to be with him in that, I tried to comfort him, I tried to just be there, hold him and he wanted me to pray. I've never done so much praying in my life. Just, you know, we were walking, restlessly, walking the streets, going into any church. We came by, praying, just moving and trying to find maybe, maybe there was 15 minutes a day where there was some kind of peace and anxiety was there. So this was really really heavy. It was also one of it sounds strange maybe, but it was one of the most intimate and intense things I've ever experienced with another person, I guess, because when you're in so much anxiety, all layers are peeled off and you kind of you get some moments of clarity and in some sense there's a complete honesty, there's no facade. Anyway, this was the situation.

The third thing that was really a shock to me was that his ex wanted to go all in from day one and he wanted her to. And especially the latter was quite a shock to me because I had no idea that she still meant so much for him and this brought out an old jealousy of mine. And I must admit, in that situation, with everything we had to deal with, jealousy was the last thing I wanted to deal with at this time. And maybe I should tell you a little bit about my experience with his ex, because they bottom line is she was a stranger to me and that was part of why it was so hard for me to have her so close in this situation in particular. I think their relationship was maybe 20 years back, at least 10 years before he and I got together, and it wasn't very long, less than a year and by the time I got together with him we were he was always arguing with his ex and after a while, after he and I got together, they kind of got along better and started seeing each other from time to time.

And of course I was curious about her who wouldn't be, and he sort of kept us a bit apart, in a way to say it, to protect me a little bit, because maybe he could be a little bit, I don't know how to put it. I mean, I would say from my own experience that she might have probably a lot of good qualities, but she also had a quite busy character, like a bit dominant, anyway it's. I tried to get to know her and you know we had mutual friends before we were partying. So I tried to get to know her, but she never showed any interest in getting to know me and that's anyway, that's okay. I mean, if you have a partner and he's no longer your partner and he gets a new partner, I mean there's no obligation to feel any interest in that new partner.

But the thing is, thanks being the way they were when he got his diagnosis, I just didn't understand how she could expect me to find it okay when she had never sort of shown any interest in getting to know me, or at least I didn't understand that. She didn't understand why I found it difficult, right, and well, that's her and me. That's one thing. But the other thing is that my husband didn't understand my feelings and I would say I mean we had been together for about 12 years at that time and it had been sort of surfacing before, so it couldn't be completely new to him how I felt that it was problematic for me. For instance, I mean he suffered from recurring depressions. He had felt that for a lot of years and I knew that that somehow also she maybe could be would help him a little bit, that it helped him to talk to her, which is fine. But more problematic I found it that sometimes, maybe if he and I had a row which didn't happen often, but when it happened, usually same day or the day after, he would go to see her and that made me very insecure. So I had told him before, so it wasn't new to him. But anyway, here you are in a situation where this person you love very deeply and he's going to die and he's in panic and you want to be there for him, you want to comfort him, you want to do what's best for him. So, while doing what's best for him also meant included doing things that were worst for me, so that's a catch 22. I mean, I've never.

I'm not generally, generally prone to jealousy. I mean, he and I met each other when we're in early 40s. We both lived our own lives before that and of course, you're aware that each that everyone has a past and people from the past. So it's it's I mean, and but I mean I'm. You know, I've never been someone who's gone around five times a week asking do you love me? Do you love me? I mean needing confirmation in that way. But but I had, because I had always felt that he did love me. And and now, I think within 10 days of this diagnosis, I find myself asking him do you love me? It just really didn't feel like his number one person, I mean.

Well, I think it's quite natural to be somewhat jealous of our, of our husbands, our partners, ex, particularly when they're reaching out to them at a time where you want to be intimate with him and you feel like it's your time and you and your time is limited at that point. So I think it's what you felt was very natural.

Yeah, I think so too, and and others think so too. But the thing was that she and he were completely above jealousy and and and it was like, well, that's something, that's something you have when you're 22. I mean, in my opinion, jealousy has no age, if it's usually when, when, when you say jealousy, people think of you know like what do you call it a sick kind of jealousy where, where you get jealous just because your husband looks at a woman on the street or something like like un, un jealousy for no reason.

Right Because of your own insecurity, but but, but I mean, I really truly believe this day that the jealousy I felt was for a reason. There was a reason, because there was something Well, I put it, quote unquote strange about the relationship. And much later, much, much later, I realized, by talking to to other people in their circle of friends, I realized that quite a few of them had wondered for years what was going on, in a way because, yeah, well, it's complicated, but at that time I didn't dare to ask anyone because I thought, I thought that anyone in this circle of friends, everyone, was with, friends with her too, because they used to go on some skiing trips together, so they'd known each other for years. It's just much later I realized that the others were a bit sort of what do you call it? They were wondering about this relationship and it got more complicated maybe by the fact that I'm a very old friend of my husband, also going way back after my husband stopped being with his ex.

Shortly after, within a year or two, this friend of his became her partner and by the time my so they had, like they had been seeing each other. I often wondered how do you, how do you manage this? I mean, you're with your friend and he's with your ex. How, how do you go about that? And and and it was things like well, but when I'm with him I don't talk, we don't talk about her, and I don't know it was. It was peculiar to me anyway.

But, I tried, I had tried to to have an open mind about this. I had tried to make space. Make space because it's one of the things we did in our relationship making space for the other one to be who he or she was. So, but this was simply, at this point in time, it was too much for me and it was I mean, it was from day one like she was one of the first persons you call to tell it fair enough. And then you said, she want to come, she want to come by, can she come by? And she came by, and they were just, I mean, she never came to our house when he's sorry, it was always somewhere else. And and and we just came, come back from the hospital with this he's got cancer, you know. And we were both devastated and and then I see these two people sitting opposite me, you know, holding hands, looking each other deep in the eyes. Of course it's a special situation, I know that, but at some point I just felt I might as well not have been there. It was very strange and then, but okay, you know, everything is every. Everyone has got their feelings on the outside and in a situation like this. So of course you, you react in a different way, you react more slowly, or you know you're in something and and I remember at one point my, my husband, went to the bathroom and I was sitting here with this stranger and it simply didn't know what to say to her. And and then I I just said something about because that's one thing they had said at the hospital, that it was really what do you call it? Lucky in some way that that they hadn't gone on with the goldstone operation, because once they opened him they would see the cancer and then the, the how do you say the cancer surgeons were at another hospital. So so I kind of said, well, thank God that didn't happen. Then, and maybe I repeated it once because I didn't know what to say to her. She was kind of really talking to me in a rude way, like like in a bossy way, like yeah, yeah, yeah. Now we don't have to worry about what could have happened. Now we have to look forward. It was just like hey, come on. I mean, I just started crying and it just felt so cold. Anyway, one. Now this was quite a detailed first day. Another thing in this is that this was just before Christmas and we, he couldn't get an appointment with the oncologist until January. Like about, you know, they could give him some chemo and to prolong his life, you know. And in this whole anxiety month I was, I was really worried that he might choose not to do the chemo because he might just want to get it all undone with. I was also afraid that he should jump from the balcony. I was really, really, really worried.

And it was just before Christmas and she would call almost every day and other other friends had called, of course, and they had also come by and talk, but they might maybe call once a week. She called almost every day and I was with this completely frightened person and trying to talk to him, trying to find, you know, little spots of light and all this and trying to make him cope. And then, if she called, it was like to me, it was like I felt it as a wedge coming in between us every time, because maybe I was just just getting him somewhere and she called and then, okay, then he was all on her and that was really, and I hated myself for it too, because, oh, why can't I just drop this jealousy? But nevertheless, this every time, this contact weakened me and I had so much to cope with and I really had to be strong for him. So it was really problematic.

And then, just before Christmas, we had never in all the years together, we had never spent Christmas together and then we do it on Christmas Eve. You know that's the big night and so, of course, not knowing how long you had to live, and I really wanted to spend Christmas with him. And and he agreed I mean, either he had been with his father or he had been at work on Christmas Eve. And this year we decided to do it together at my mom's place. And I said, could you please ask your ex not to call you at Christmas? Because I said we didn't want to sit at my mom's place and her suddenly calling and you know, I had to have this wage coming in and and he, he agreed. And and then he said to me could you?

Now I called her, I told her not to call and she felt a little bit strange and she was a little bit upset. Could you please write her a letter? No, no, he didn't say that. Could you please write her and explain that her mail or something. And the last thing I wanted to do was to, you know, think about her. And he was really sort of anxious and and like you know the talk to him, I said does it really mean that much to you? Yes, please. And when I sat down and started to write an email to him, and as I did this I realized that all my saved up frustration, my old, old jealousy, just kind of came out. And but you know, I tried to write, write it really politely and okay, this one other thing I have, I have to say, which is part of the story, it should be said Shortly after they split up way back, way back.

She had had cancer and at that time my husband had really been there for her, like coming along, sitting with her, just no expectations, just being there and helping her. And of course she was very, very grateful for that and she of course wanted to, you know, show her gratitude by being there for him. Now, which is, I understand, I understand, great difference is, of course, that when she was ill she was single and now, when he was ill, he had a wife. Yeah, absolutely so. So I think there's some. I mean, you have to weigh up some things. How can I best help someone? Can I best help someone by keeping a little profile for a while.

Anyway, I wrote this letter to her and I told her I understand that you're upset too of losing him and you know who's going to die, and it's beautiful with all these people wanting to help us. But I have a problem with this and it's about an old jealousy of mine and I wrote to her I wish I didn't have it. But it comes from this and this and you're a stranger to me and you know, right now I need all my energy for him. So, kind of you know, asking her how do you put this firmly but politely? But to please know her place, step down and to not contact him. I mean to wait for him to contact her, not calling all the time, like for him to contact her. And I also promised her to keep her, you know, up to date about how things are going and let her know everything if one day he couldn't let her know, and my husband read this letter, so he knew what I sent to her and I wrote to her that he had read it, you know so.

And then I send it off and then, oh God, she didn't enter in until 10 days later. 10 days is a long time when you're in that state.

Anyway, she answered something like I'm sorry about this, and okay, I also offered her if she wanted to talk to me about this thing with the jealousy, we could do that. But maybe she shouldn't talk so much to my husband about it, because he wasn't, he had enough on his plate. And when I got the answer, like I mean also she was of course sorry, but she didn't excuse her behavior that first day at all, which was something in a way I needed, but that's what it is. And she said that she sort of if you both want this, I respect it. And I was like okay, it was.

And then, well, soon after my husband asked me, can she call me again?

And and it's like, and this is the catch 22, you know, because if I said no, would he then sort of be sulking at me for the rest of his time, or if I said yes, it would rip me apart.

And anyway, I said yes because I didn't know what to do and I had, I had asked him because at one stage it was really like I asked him you have to choose between her and me, because if I have to be in this with you, you have to choose. And I remember one evening I asked him that and he said okay, then I'll say goodbye to her, but then you can't leave me. And he went into the street to call her and Her line was busy. He came back up and he said and this isn't a good idea. And in a way I knew it wasn't a good idea, but at that time I just wanted her gone from my life. But of course, asking another person to completely cut with someone who means something to him is can you ask another person that in this situation? You know it's complicated, it's not black and white.

It is complicated, but I have to interject here and I think that every woman listening will resonate with what you're saying, will relate to what you're saying. When you're with someone and they're with their ex and they're having that sort of intimacy, you're going to be jealous. As I said earlier. I think that's a natural response. But you tried as best you can to accommodate him, but you've got your feelings as well.

I think it depends, because I think it's possible to have you know, I mean, if I had known her, if she had been a person I liked, but my experiences with her were not pleasant and you could say that doesn't matter, as long. I mean, I don't have to have anything to do with her in general in our life very little, but in this situation it really mattered. I mean, just to mention there's actually another ex-affilus, because actually I also went to school with I mean back from high school with my husband, and you went back then and his girlfriend back then was also my best friend and we're still friends today. So it's not the question of being an ex in itself, it's got to do with respecting each other's roles, so it's not the ex in itself. Anyway, I felt invaded so I tried to swallow it because I I mean at one stage he said, oh, maybe I should. I mean he said maybe I should just go live somewhere else and then you can come visit me. And I completely couldn't cope with that because I mean I wanted to be with him as much as possible in the little time, whatever time we had left. So him moving out was also. I couldn't see it as an option. Maybe it would have been a good idea. I don't know in hindsight, but I couldn't cope then and I wanted to take care of him.

So anyway, january came and we, we saw the oncologists and he decided to do the chemo. And well, we asked about the prognosis, because if you think you're dead in two weeks, and that's your state, you know. And then, and the doctor said, well, he thought that at least 12 months, and that was. I mean, the pills had started working a bit, and I think this marriage kind of made my husband said well, then, we might. Then it looks as if we can have some kind of everyday life, at least for a while, you know. And so we what do you call it? We throw it on whatever.

And but I just he didn't want any counseling. I mean, I had asked him because this problem was so big between us and I thought we should get some I don't know what you call it marriage counseling, or I felt it was necessary Because there were some things here not dealt with, and his attitude was like what's the use now? I mean, again this, I'm dying in a minute, you know. And I wish he had thought differently about that, because I'm not sure it would have helped. But he didn't want counseling and I said we have to and he didn't accept my jealousy.

I mean that's really the thing. If you go into marriage and you kind of say you're going to love and honor each other and you know for sickness and health, all those things, to me it's to honor someone also means to respect their feelings. I mean feelings. We can't help feeling the way we feel. We can, we can help how we react or act on them, but we can't help the feelings we have. It's out of our control, at least the moment you have the feeling it's out of your hands.

So, and you know, like if you say to her, if you have a child and the child is afraid of the dark and you're not afraid of the dark, and you say to this child that's ridiculous, there's nothing to be afraid of, and you talk the child into bed and put out the light and close the door and leave the room, that's not going to make that fear in the child any smaller, you know. On the contrary, on the contrary. So if someone is not, I mean you can. You can respect someone's feelings, even though you don't understand them or you you find them ridiculous for yourself, you know. But you have to respect that someone else is somewhere else and I mean, imagine that I had said to him that his fear of death was ridiculous, and anyway, I think. I think you might say that's beyond comparison, but it's, hmm.

I think you said it very well your feelings are your feelings. We can we can choose how we respond or react to our feelings, but we can't really control our feelings directly. And again, I think it's a situation where it's an ex person and that you said you don't know her very well, and you're in a situation where your husband is dying. Of course you're going to want to want, you're going to want privacy, you're going to have that. That time you have with him left. You want it to be as special as possible. So I think why, rationally speaking, maybe you know you were trying to get out of the way and everything. I can understand your feelings for absolutely a hundred percent.

Thank you. I think, the actually it was not having the feeling and it was not her in in her. You know, in itself the worst thing was that he didn't respect my feeling.

He didn't choose you yes.

Well, I think he couldn't choose that's a later realization, but but I think he was unable, and that's of course scaring to realize, but but actually I think he was unable, at least in that, in that state he was in Right, and anyway, I don't know where we go from here. So, the only, the only, the only, the only so kind of counseling he wanted. If you could talk about that is he only wanted to talk to our Vika, you know to your Vika.

Yeah, and and of course Vika is not a psychologist, but you can talk about death and dying and I think it it meant something to him to have those talks. However, he didn't want to talk to Vika about the jealousy thing, but and I went with him, I mean I accompanied him and it was quite precious to me actually, because my husband wasn't very good at sharing his thoughts, so sometimes I only learned about what was going on in his head when I heard him talk to others, when someone else asked him something and he answered. So it's, it was valuable to me to to be at those talks, you know going on, but I just have to tell you this because I mean, I tried to swallow all this but I simply couldn't cope and I was falling to pieces three times a week about this jealousy thing and in the end he said him not wanting us to go to counseling together. I mean, you know, group or what do you call it? Marriage counseling? He said, but then maybe you should talk to.

There was the ex-husband's ex, the new ex like his, his old friend. They had recently divorced so he could come and talk to me and I said, well, okay, I'll try it. And I talked to him about my whole relationship, non-relationship with his ex you know, my husband's ex and and he just just didn't give me anything. I mean, all three of them were really above this any understanding of my feelings.

Right right.

And then, like a week later, I was still falling to pieces about this and and sorry, and it was really so lonely, it was so lonely not having you know your feelings recognized. Yeah, so, and then one, about one week later, he said then then you have, then she'll have to come here and you will have to talk to her.

Right, we're running a little short on time, so if we could, could we move forward to when, when your husband was actually hospitalized, like I know there were some things that happened when he was hospitalized that that we we need to really touch on.

Well, okay, I'll try. I'll try to force forward a bit.

I mean things weren't going well, but I was trying to hang in there and I was trying to swallow things and basically you could say I was sent off to see counseling myself on my right to sort out my that jealousy thing of mine. I ended up doing counseling for three years, not about the jealousy but about the whole thing, sure, anyway. So I was trying to do that and I went with him to chemo and you know and things. The situation just wasn't sustainable because he didn't let me in. And when you walk in something like this every day, I mean it's really hard for your self, for his thing. So at one point this is actually this is a long before he was hospitalized, because that was much later we had had a rough week and I had gone for a walk one evening just to talk on the phone with my sister, and when I came back.

He had been drinking a little bit and he said tomorrow I'll move out. And I was. I just couldn't believe it and I said well, what do you expect from me then? And it's something about well, I expect you to, you know, take care of the bills every month, and I mean, sort things out, keep all the you know, all the secretary work I'd been doing for months besides the housework, besides everything. And then he went to bed and I went to pieces, completely went to pieces, because I tried so hard, and then he ends up leaving me.

And next morning I went to church and I came back and he had, I think, maybe hadn't quite realized what he had said, I don't know, but he had made arrangements to go Wednesday with his ex and I it was really sad I helped him pack some things, you know, his medicine and all those things I had been taking care of, and we were both sad and I said what about your? You have this favorite chair, do you want your chair? And then he said, oh, but I think I might be coming back. I guess I will at some point. And that's just kind of a roller coaster thing with my emotions. I mean, you don't tell someone you leave and then you sort of next day oh maybe I didn't mean it, I mean it was, I just I just took him to have it and then, anyway, it was very, very sad, we were both sad and he left. When he came and picked him up and the next day it was, he was going to get some answers for a scan this latest scan and I had already made an appointment that I would go with him or meet him at the hospital for this. So I went there with him and actually this scan was positive. You know right, it looked good and I still imagine this doctor sitting there in front of two people who got this news and just looked really sad for the two of them. But anyway, that's how it goes.

And then we had a cup of coffee outside because he had to wait for some things to come test, and then we had the, but he said some things that just really triggered me and we had the biggest fallout. I mean, I got so angry and we parted in anger, both of us, and I went home and I was just crying and you do as if all this, all this, this was six months in, you know, months of suppressed emotion. Just, I mean, I was angry for 24, 7, for 10 days in a row. I've never been so angry in my life, I had so much anger. I talked to the walls, I was really angry. I was like, you know, finally, the lead of the you know. Anyway, we were both sorry that we had parted this way. We wrote, we texted each other, but I was still angry. And a friend of his suggested that he moved to another friend instead of his ex if he wanted to come back, and which was good and he did, but anyway he finally we met then after 10, 12 days and he finally agreed that we got some counseling, finally, finally, finally.

And then we got some counseling at you know, the cancer, cancer patients and their relatives, and we had about four sessions. But he was I can't explain to you this, but what came out in those sessions? It was just like it felt as if my whole life crumbled backwards in front of my very eyes, like things came out, like things are lasting about through the years and never got clear arms to. Suddenly I got to know things and I just felt more and more that I'd been living on a lie, which I hadn't. But this is what I felt at the time and that I didn't feel any love from him. And I mean I remember after these sessions we went to a cafe and talked on and he was just saying some really mean and vicious things and hardly any love, and very angry with me and still no understanding and I just couldn't. I mean he wanted to come back but I didn't dare because those 10 days of anger, when I finally had some space for myself, I had realized what it had done to me to live with him under those circumstances. I still loved him, I still wanted to be there for him, but I felt I couldn't live with him and to him it was all or nothing.

So after the last session he came at the session he was very determined and he, like he was scolding the counselor for her counseling he was. He said I'm going to file for divorce and I'm going to move my things out later this week and outside it was a very short session Outside he told me to say goodbye from him to my mom and my sis and I said I was really crying. I said please don't die with so much hatred in your heart and he was just so angry with me I think he shook hands with me for goodbye and then he left and two days later divorce papers were there and two days after that his friends and he came and got all his things which I had gotten ready for him and it was just really total disaster. And I remember when he left all the friends had already left the flat and when he left, said goodbye. I said I really don't want to help you, even though I can't live with you, and he said that's very difficult because this is the most abominable thing I've ever experienced. And I remember when he was going down the stairs he said because he had been in the house for a long time, he had called my jealousy a demon, which was also very hurtful early on, because he saw his own anxiety, his fear, as a demon. He made this parallel that my jealousy was a demon like I was possessed. And when he left that day he said there is no demon, it's simply you. And that was the last time I saw him for well, I thought forever.

But turned out differently. So clean, cut, divorce. And he didn't want to have any contact with me, none whatsoever. Right the fury, this hatred. I was just cut out of his life. In a way, he made himself dead for me before he died, and this was not right. I mean, this was I knew, I think.

About a month later I realized that what I tried to make him understand he was literally unable to understand. He was unable, and whether that was because of the fear or you know, some deficiency he was born with or some, he was a damaged child. He had a very rough childhood. I didn't know, but the fact was he was unable, and so I regretted that I had kind of been. I understood. I understood why he had felt that I was just banging him on his head with blame because he didn't understand it Right, and that meant that I could forgive a lot of things, but I couldn't live with the way we parted.

So I started writing this letter to him, explaining and really not blaming and asking for reconciliation, because I felt we had always loved each other. I still believed in that love and also thanking him for all the things I wanted to thank him for, which was something we had never had time for, because everything was conflict and crisis and jealousy and hatred and anger, and we had never had this quiet time. I didn't dare to post it because I was afraid she would get the letter, so I left it. I left it with his lawyer just before Christmas and texted him short text saying I'd left the last things at his lawyers and I didn't know what to do. And then by the end of January the divorce was settled and I got this email from his lawyer. I mean there was some money that had been transferred and the lawyer just announced this to me.

And then he also wrote that he had been asked to tell me that my husband didn't ex-husband. I still call him my husband, but my husband didn't want any contact with me whatsoever, including my participation in his funeral. And I was like I mean, ever since he left, ever since he left, I've been praying for him every day. That day I found it quite hard because I thought that his hatred really was it really beyond death. But to this day I don't know if that message came from him or from his ex. I suspect maybe it came from his ex because she was probably the one dealing with the lawyer, because he didn't deal with those things himself. But it was hard. So all in all, about a year after, if you want me to fast forward there's a lot of things in between.

But about a year after he moved out, I heard from other friends that he was now not staying with her but staying in, well, this little house of his in the woods, and I thought if I can ever talk to him maybe it's now, because I know we can't deal with the two of us at the same time. So I called him, I took a lot of courage to call him and I had even warned him with a text saying I'm going to call you tomorrow. You can think about whether you want to pick up. Anyway, he picked up and it turned out he'd never seen my text and he was quite surprised and asked me what I wanted. And I, a while, called and I said I wanted to hear whether he had read my letter. And it was like what letter? He didn't know anything of it.

And the thing is it was as if this hatred was gone and he thought that I was moving on with my life and I wasn't. I mean, my life had stopped, more or less, and I asked him if I could call him again and he didn't say any clear yes or clear no, which I thought okay, I can do it. I mean we talked about for about an hour and then I talked to him. I tried again two weeks later. He didn't pick up and then three weeks after that I talked to him again and that was when I talked to him for an hour and a half and that conversation in itself kind of saved my sanity because it was just like the man I used to know. He was just like you know.

We had a really beautiful conversation and we even laughed and talked about things. I mean, okay, I avoided conflict stuff, but it was really like the old days and it was so strange, so beautiful and so strange. And he told me that he was very ill and he was going back to go to hospital the next day. So I asked him if I could visit him at the hospital and he was kind of hesitant but I said I'll call him. And then sometimes later, a few days later, he was hospitalized, as you say. And well, I think you have. What do you call it when you have this? The blood, the clogs, the vein, I don't know what it's called. Where does it go?

Yeah, one clot yeah.

Yeah, so he had that in his leg and he had a lot of fluid in his body. Anyway, they fixed him up a bit and I called him two to three times there but she was kind of camping at the hospital so sometimes when I talked to him I sensed she was in the room and we could talk so freely. Not a lot of那我們 no-transcript. Yeah, I called him one night and he wasn't feeling well and I said, okay, I'll call you tomorrow. And you said better the day after and we agreed on that and hung up and then like four hours later in the middle of the night I suddenly got this text from her saying you have to understand he doesn't want to have any contact with you and you know, stay away and understand this and this text can't be answered.

I got furious because I just made this other appointment with him and I didn't know if it came from him or not. It turned out she went behind his back because then the day after I called him and I said I hope it's okay. I called you and he said yes, of course we agreed on that and I said okay, and he sounded very determined and he couldn't talk because the doctors were coming out and I said, okay, we'll talk later. I called him in the afternoon and then and he had sent her out of the room, and then he told me, this time politely, that we shouldn't have any contact anymore. And I was devastated, really devastated, that he could do it twice to me.

So that's kind of the culmination of two years of an emotional state of emergency.

So when he ultimately did pass, were you involved in his funeral arrangements at all?

Well, the thing is, I actually got to see him. I don't know, miracles happened, miracles happened. I think he was after this, maybe two weeks later. Oh, by the way, he had told me he was being discharged and would make arrangements to go to a hospice. He was very ambiguous in his way of talking to me, because in one sentence he says I'm going to a hospice and now I have to find someone to take care of me, as if he was calling out for me. It was so strange.

Anyway, he was discharged and two weeks later I heard from friends that he was admitted again and he was in a very, very bad state. Actually, he was admitted on his birthday, I think, and I thought okay, this is it, what am I going to do? I had to see him, I simply had to see him and I didn't want to go there and crash gate crashing and making scenes because I knew she was there 24 seven as well. So what to do? And I was up all night and wondering, and then in the morning, early morning, I called the hospital to mortem and I talked to a night nurse and I explained this whole thing to her and I said I don't know what to do because he can't deal with the two of us at the same time. But I really want to see him. And she said she told me to call when the day shift had arrived. So I called three hours later and then it turned out and this is the miracle this night, nurse, she had gone to this room while his ex was in the shower and she had asked him if she wanted to fill in a form. You know, if you're not close relative, you're not allowed to hear how things are going. It's confidential. So you can fill in a form to say this person is allowed to know how things are going when she calls and she's also allowed to see me when I'm dead. And he had signed it. He had signed it and I was so surprised.

And then the day after I was well, it comes to me with my, with the wicker, sorry. And I got a call from the hospital, kind of summoning like saying well, if you want to say goodbye, you should come soon. And I said, okay, you got to help me then with his ex, that we don't sort of have, you know, bump into each other, and that's what happened. I mean, they helped, they helped. And I went there and he was.

I hadn't seen him for 15 months, physically, but the strange thing is that I in a way didn't care because it was the mental thing that was important. But this time I really felt driven and it was important to show him that I had never stopped loving him. But he was heavily medicated, dozing off, and the thing is, at this time he had no mimic, like, maybe because of the medication, his face there's no facial expressions and he had this gray veil over his eyes so we couldn't really tell how he felt. But I told him that I was there and I asked him it was okay and he said I asked him several times and one time he said yes, and then I just sat there holding his hand. Of course it was very emotional for me, but there was kind of peace between us and an hour and a half and then she wanted to come back in and then I realized I wasn't done yet. So I wanted to go down the next day because I really had to tell him some things and I got there again and again. They kind of helped with the situation and this time I had he was more awake, which was beautiful, and I had kind of brought this letter of mine, but only the best parts of it, the parts with thanking him, things I wanted to thank him for, and I read this. Well, I did some other things too, but I read this letter to him and felt that he heard it and also had some greetings for him from people who couldn't deal with the situation and hadn't visited him.

And then she came in and made a scene and that's or rather she started a conflict with me. Instead of sending in one of the nurses to ask him to leave, she just came in and said no, you've been with him enough and he started shaking. It was terrible. He was shaking and sitting up in bed and then she had gone out. Briefly he said something like her name and leave and you, and I asked him, do you want her to leave or do you want me to leave? And then he said just said can't decide. And I said you didn't have to. Now I was going to leave. Well, I won't go into details, but very emotional goodbye. And that's the last time I saw him in my life. I wanted to go back the next day, but she had the hospital followed her wishes that I should come and he went into more or less into a coma the next day and died the day after.

So when, when he did eventually pass, you were, you were divorced and you were, you were being kept from seeing him. So how did you go from that to the forgiveness that we talked about at the beginning Because I know you've had a quite a journey since then in terms of your evolution your forgiveness- Well, I think part of my forgiveness came before he died.

That's why it was so crucial. Also, I mean, I wanted to see him again, I wanted reconciliation and of course I did want that for my own sake, mostly in the beginning. But after I realized I have to tell you one thing in that first fragile, precious month, you know, I remember one day I was holding him and comforting him and praying for him, you know, and he had this he suddenly said it's amazing that you're here in this with me, like, really like wonder, full of wonder, wow that you're here. And I said, of course I am, I love you and you do the same for me. And then he said no, if it was the other way around I would have run away screaming.

And I think, I think he was just completely honest. And you know, given the whole situation with the jealousy thing, of course, this sentence resonated in my head many times. But when he after he moved out and I realized some things, I realized that because in one of the sessions I had confronted him with this uttering of his a couple of times before we split up and he had never answered. But in one of the counseling sessions, at the end. She asked him because I brought it up. So the counselor asked him and then he said well, I think I would have tried If it was the other way around, I would have tried, but I would have been on the verge of suicide. And then I kind of, you know, thought, okay, he's been projecting his own on me. It kind of expected that I in the I would leave him along the way, and I think whether it's conscious, consciously or subconsciously, that played a part in his holding on to her in order to have someone if I live. I don't know I don't know, but it's just.

I just realized that maybe he simply didn't dare to trust love. I don't know.

So, since he's passed and you said you started the forgiveness journey before, how's it been? How's it been since I, because I know you refer to, I know Anita Morjani's work has influenced you. So what way was that?

That was, yeah, it's okay. I said I forgave him but also, you must remember, I had lived sort of only with his hatred for 15 months. So even though we had some kind of reconciliation, I mean I didn't. I didn't dare to ask him if he still loved me. I didn't dare to ask because it was so hard and the whole thing about the funeral. I had no say in it. I felt in my heart, I felt as his widow, but I had no say and there was some coldness around the funeral from some of his friends and that kind of prolonged my grieving process because I knew what had happened between him and me and he hadn't really told his friends about his conversations with me, you know. And maybe they took I don't know if I can blame them, they took the divorce at face value, like we were divorced, so no saying anything almost. And I, yeah, I had.

This was in November. He died and I had in January I had one dream where he with him and we were together and we were happy and we were playful and everything was beautiful. That was nice, but I was. I have this. What do you say? It sounds strange, but I was worried about him because he had had so much anger and hatred and didn't really dare to be able to believe in God or mercy, grace, I don't know. I was afraid that he was in some kind of it sounds irrational, but in some kind of limbo, like not choosing God, not going home to God, if you know what I mean. And that was one thing. The other thing was I was still very doubting whether he loved me.

And then I had the most amazing experience in the spring. I went to his grave and where he was, his urn was buried. No one had told me that. I'd found that out myself and, you know, prayed a bit, cried a bit and actually asked for signs. I think I asked for signs before and then I this was in another town and I made a day trip out of it. So I made a long walk and this was a beautiful, beautiful spring day. I mean, all the beach trees had just come out, the whole world was green and I walked and I was sad, but I kind of lightened up a bit, being in nature, started looking at plants which was something we had always done together and feeling good, and I felt a bit that he was with me on this walk. And the funny thing is I wanted to make it shorter than it ended up being.

But then I met some people who say, oh, first I found a check, there's an owl in a tree. And I thought, okay, I want to see the owl. And so I continued and skipped the next station and the next station and at the end I was. I never saw the owl, but at the end I was in a park where I had never been before, beautiful, like a state park, and all the time I was looking for a special bird, a wren, because we had, in our last conversation on the phone he had promised to show me, send me some wrens, birds. I never saw. He always saw them. So I was looking for wrens and didn't see any. Maybe I did, but didn't recognize them. And then I'm coming around the corner and I mean I have to tell you this, just after he left.

For months I had put this poem on the wall at home. It's a famous poem in Denmark and it's about how hateful lovers can be to each other, but also that they can make up just by looking at each other and, you know, stroking each other's hair. And I prayed that this last verse would become true. I had never told my husband about this poem. I come around the corner on this trip and suddenly smack in my face this poem carved in stone. I mean literally carved in stone. And it turns out, I later found out, it's a memorial for the poet.

So he took this poem carved in stone and I was just what I was really like, and the first, because the verse where they are mean to each other is in the center. So that's the first thing I saw and I was like, oh, and then I was just really. You know, I went home, I went to the station, I went on the train and it wasn't until I sat on the train that it dawned on me that this is too coincidental. This is too coincidental. I mean, I kept prolonging the trip. I felt his presence and then I just thought, wow, and I thought, ok, if he can send me this, he's OK, and if he sends me this it's also because he loves me. And I talked to a friend about these thoughts, about is he OK, could he find his way to God? You know what I mean, right? And she said well, if you doubt that, you should read this book, and that was Anita Mochani's book.

Yeah.

Time to be mean and I read it at Pentecost I think Sat on a balcony reading this book and when I got to the sentence of her, you know, telling what she experienced on the other side the sentence there is no judgment it just hit me as completely true. Really, it was like a knowledge in my heart and I started crying my eyes out and I was reading, crying, reading, crying, and it was just so releasing because I didn't have to judge him, I didn't have to judge myself. It was just, it was really a turning point. I mean, after this, ever since he died, I didn't want to live anymore. I just wanted to die so I could get to him and get this sorted out, you know, and to understand things. Everything that had happened, this kind of made me realize that, ok, maybe you should be here anyway. You know, after all, live your life. So it started a lot. It started a lot in me. It was really a turning point.

It's great. Yeah, that's an excellent book. And Anita's, I think her message and the message we get from NDE's in general is there is no judgment. And now I have to tell you that I think a lot of people would think, after everything that your husband put you through, that a lot of people would say I would never be able to forgive him. I would. So your resilience and your enduring love for him is admirable.

Well, you know, I have kept having new realizations in this. I mean, it's a long process. I of course I've gone over things a million times in my mind and I had you know, could I have acted differently? And yes, of course you can always act differently, but I can kind of see that, given the circumstances, I couldn't have acted differently back then. Right, and that's one thing I realized really, and that is that every one of us, in any given situation, we're doing it. We're doing it as good as we can, you know, depending on the insight we have or don't have in ourselves and in others. Yes, I mean, I mean, I mean you can always get wiser about something, but then you should kind of forgive your earlier self, because back then you didn't know what you know now.

That's a great point. Yeah, that's a very good point. We have to forgive others and also forgive ourselves, and sometimes we're the hardest on ourselves. You know what you went through with your husband and his ex and again, I think any woman or any person listening can definitely relate to what you're calling jealousy is just a normal response. I think that's perfectly understandable. And then to be to feel rejected by your husband at the time when you know you felt like he was trying to reject it and at the same time he wanted me there.

So it's so ambiguous.

Right but.

I mean, we mustn't forget he was in an extreme circumstance to himself.

Sure, and that's and that's very understanding of you to realize that. But again, I think for the average human being we would say, okay, well, if you don't want me, then I don't want you. You're a very understanding person and so you said that your forgiveness process began even before he passed. But I can only imagine how terrible it must have felt to you know to not be involved in the funeral arrangements and be frozen out by the friends and all that. You could have held that resentment for a very long time.

Well, I had to deal with it at some time. It prolonged the grief process and I tried to approach some of them to get the clarity and they weren't really interested in talking about things. So, but I made an effort, yes, and because I think we should all get a chance to get wiser. But if people don't want to have dialogue, then it stops there. What another thing about forgiveness is? I think it's very, very important to know that there's a huge difference between forgiving the actions of the person and forgiving the person.

Talk about that.

Well, I mean, I've talked to people about forgiveness a lot and they find it hard to forgive someone because my mother was so mean to me, or you know, people had terrible experiences, and often from loved ones, or you know, and I just think and they say it's I can never forgive him or her. And I think it's just so important to differ between the actions and the person because, as I said, there are lots of actions you shouldn't let are unacceptable. I mean you shouldn't forgive violence. You know it shouldn't be accepted, but you can't forgive the violator or what you call it.

Yeah, the perpetrator sure.

Because we're all in. I mean, it's not easy, but actually it also releases yourself. I remember at one point maybe it was that day when I got that note from the lawyer about the not coming to the funeral, maybe. But I remember I'm quite conscious of at some point in those first six months and later, I felt his hatred so enormous and I, you know you're inclined to hate back, you know what I mean you get really angry and you want to hit back and it's, it's, and of course you can do that verbally.

But I remember at one point, clearly, I was at a crossroad in my mind because should I just go on hating him? Should I just say all our love was fake, which I don't think it was because I realized along the way that when I felt he had been lying to me, he had actually been lying to himself. He had been lying to himself. He had I mean, he had what do you call it? Not dealt with his omissions and like they caught up with him in my, maybe in terms of me saying, hey, what about? What about love? What about? You know?

I remember it was tempting to say, okay, he's just, I was just married to a monster.

I'll hate him till they die and I'll move on. But I knew I wouldn't move on, because then you become bitter and he's given me and I haven't had time to tell you I don't have now, but he's given me so much I mean. I mean all those years. I mean he is the love of my life and I'd always felt that he and I were supposed to do something together and even though when times were rough and during his depression it's contagious sometimes when someone is depressed for six months in a row so maybe at times I might have had the thought should, should we split? I mean, can I do this? Do I want to grow old with this person? You know what I mean? It's I'm honest about this I've had the thought, but every time I'm very consciously chosen to stay because I always felt there was something we had to do with each other. And, as it turns out, actually I think it was this, it was this process, and that's a new thought.

Yes.

That's a new, because I read Christian Sonberg's A Walk in the Physical and I started thinking could this have all been planned? Yes, and it's a, yeah, it's, it's. It's strange because the thing is I'm, I'm very happy today. I mean, I think I'm, I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. I'm happy when I wake up in the morning and I've I don't know where to go in my life right now, but I'm kind of taking one day at a time and seeing what comes up. I've. I mean, something has really changed recently, also after reading A Walk in the Physical that when I read that book it was as if the last bits and pieces with me and my husband fell into place. I can't say exactly what sentence and what page, but I just was very moved when I read it and it was a gave me peace. And it's so funny because sorry, I have to cough.

Some time last year I was getting back on track, sort of yeah, and then there was this. It was so strange because I had this nagging feeling of guilt that I had that ever since the whole thing started I hadn't been able to place it. You know, I had gone through everything in my mind. Was it about the divorce? Was it about this or that? You know, I had gone through everything and I couldn't place it.

And then, sometime last year, I just realized that this feeling of guilt was towards myself, and this may sound strange, but it was. I had allowed myself to almost lose myself. I had been a doormat I mean not by choice well, yes, by choice, but I had chosen to stay in it for so long that I almost lost myself. It was only my huge anger at the end that saved me, I think. And then I thought so maybe that's not self-love, actually. But then I thought, when you're a doormat, and if you keep being a doormat, when actually at the same time you keep the other one who is the boot or whatever, you keep him locked in the role of the boot. So and I mean that could explain a feeling of guilt, if you know what I mean, because I'm not taking my own action, I'm also keeping him in a role that it's not pleasant for him.

That's a very good realization and that's something, again, we have to.

On the one hand, you're showing him love and your honor, your commitment, but on the other hand, you're not setting appropriate boundaries and that's what you realize is like I allow myself to almost lose myself.

So self-care is very important and we have to balance all these things out and in relationship. At what point is it am I expressing love to the other person? At what point am I giving up my own agency and taking care of myself? So you've gone through that process and I love the fact that you've taken these lessons from people like Christian Sunberg, with a walk in the physical and need a more Johnny and said how can I apply those to my life and how can I view this with some people, with you, as a terrible tragedy of my husband, you know, contracting cancer and leaving me and all those things, and how can I turn this into something positive? How can I take this and use it to mold myself into a better person, which is exactly what you've done and, as you said, today you're a happy person and you're a fulfilled person. So that's an awesome, awesome story.

It's funny you say that thing about a better person, because sometimes last year I had this dream where I was with my husband and there was peace between us. He was ill and I was saying to him I'm so sorry you got so ill, and his answer was completely neutral Peace has made you a better human being. And then I woke up, you know I was like, oh, wow and and and and.

Well, at the time I had the dream. I was a bit like well, what about yourself? Did you learn something? But the more I thought about it, I thought, yeah, it could be that's right, because I've learned to forgive, and that's a and okay, I don't prefer the term a better human being. I would rather say that you become better at being a human being. Yeah, yeah, but, but it was true. There's a truth in it, and it's I just have to tell you, something strange too, because then, the earlier this year, january, I was one day I was thinking about his ex, and I was thinking about her with peace and and also with the thought that even our adversaries, adversaries.

I hear to teach us something profound less, I was just but listen, listen. Later that week I was told that she was dead and I was. I was so happy that I had that thought before.

Yes.

To pass Because.

I we're actually coming to the end of our time. I want to thank you so much for being here today. I want to thank you for sharing such a deeply personal story and I appreciate your selflessness in doing this, because you and I have been talking for a couple of months now to set this up and sure you weren't you're first, you weren't really sure that if you were wanting to share it. I know you were nervous about it. You've done a wonderful job of telling your story. I know it's going to be an inspiration to people.

Well, it's hard to to to keep clear of getting lost in details and and that's, of course, a lot more to this story than than I've told, and something I actually plan to say at the very beginning was that, whatever I'm going to tell you then, it's important to know that I'm at peace with these people now.

Yes.

I really am and and I think I think there's well, there's there's growth in this and I think there's a purpose with this.

Absolutely, absolutely, 100%. Again, thanks for being here today and thanks for sharing this and enjoy the rest of your day.

You're welcome. I hope it can help someone.