Talking to Lost Loved Ones With AI | John Kammer EP 483

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Close your eyes and imagine What if the things in life that cause us the greatest pain the things that bring us grief are challenges Challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be we feel like we've been buried, but what if like a seed we've been planted and Having been planted we grow to become a mighty tree now Open your eyes Open your eyes to this way of viewing life Come with me as we explore your true infinite eternal nature This is grief to growth and I am your host Brian Smith Hey there everyone, this is Brian Smith and welcome to grief to growth whether you're a longtime listener This is your first time joining us.

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I'm so glad you're here The show is all about helping you navigate life's most challenging moments and understand the deeper questions Who we are where we came from why we're here and where we're going today.

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I'm talking with John Camer John is a new father a dedicated husband and someone has turned his own journey through profound loss into a mission help others heal After losing three of his closest friends John found himself navigating not just grief But the silence and shadows that so often surround it especially for men out of that experience He created guardian angels and it's a I N G E L S which is an AI platform to offer something truly unique Simulated conversations with lost loved ones designed to help people achieve resolution and healing now I know what some of you might be thinking AI conversations with people.

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We've lost this raises some questions And that's exactly what we're going to explore together What can AI offer in the grief journey and whatever its limitations?

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How does this work as a tool for healing rather than a replacement for genuine connection and what does it learned To what does it mean to learn to live?

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Well with grief as part of our story instead of trying to bury it So John's mission goes beyond just offering comfort He's committed to bringing the broader conversation about grief out of the shadows and helping us understand how masculinity Vulnerability and healing intersect in ways that we don't talk about often enough And if you want to continue this conversation after the episode head over to grief to growth that substack calm You'll find an article there about the episode You'll find other can other listeners there and you can interact with me as well So at that I want to welcome to grief to growth John camera Thanks for thanks for having me.

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I'm really excited for this conversation Really?

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Yeah, this is a very exciting subject It's it's AI.

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I'm a technology guy I'm a grief guy and the intersection of the two is always really interesting to me But I would John I'd like for people to understand like who you are and why you're here So what is it?

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I know you said you lost three friends and that kind of led to your to experience of building guardian angels Tell me about your friends Well, yeah They were three of the closest people to me outside of my immediate family, right so so my chosen family if you will The majority of them are no longer here and that started 13 years ago with the loss of my friend Zach that was suicide that was the moment where you know that that adolescent kind of Hubris that Invincibility all those kind of things that come along with being young were shattered in an instant that was when You know that that kind of sent me down a path of call it substance-fueled avoidance So, you know, I chose substances as my coping method of choice for 12 years and You know looking back.

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I truly I do wonder where I'd be if if I've had something like guardian angels 13 years ago You know, it's it's a lesson in futility to try to do that thought exercise, but it's hard not to sometimes That You know led me for I guess led into the next loss That was John the best man at my wedding.

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That one was in December of 2022 And actually, well, you know if he had an accident He's in a coma for nine days and we lost him on on New Year's Eve, which you know fittingly enough He was always the life of the party.

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That was the day he'd want to go if there was one so You know that that one that one held a lot of guilt for me, I don't feel that I did my part as a As a best man right to you know between the time of him speaking at my wedding and his death I spoke to him once and so I really didn't feel like like I was Reciprocating what he gave to me and and that manifests itself later And And then Tim was my best one from childhood Best part, you know the person I've been through more with the person I've leaned on for the prior to losses And about a year later 369 days to be precise.

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I lost him in a car accident.

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So all of them were Instantaneous losses.

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They were all none of them were anything I could prepare for it was just hey, they're no longer here and That's you know, I spiraled I I went down, you know, I was in a very negative headspace so much so after Tim's death that I I seriously considered leaving my wife Because the people that were close to me were dying and that was my reality Mm-hmm, and you know, it's not a rational thought it's not You know, it was really just every time the phone rang who's next Yeah, and it was hard to get out of that line of thinking and that's so that's where I was and then we Kind of, you know another year goes by and of deep Personal work and trying to understand what was what this was all about and reading man's search for meaning and trying to write my way And journal my way through the pain that I've experienced and and try to understand What was happening and diving deep into the stages of grief and realizing why those weren't really the right you know way to Capture the lived experience and and all sorts of things and finally had a conversation with my wife that sparked An idea that later turned into guardian angels, which is where we are now You know Yeah, well John I am I'm so sorry for your losses and that's that is got to be devastating for anyone Especially, you know a young man And it was interesting.

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I just had a conversation a couple days ago Someone were recording a podcast about men's issues and I'm much older than you are So I don't know what it's like to be a young man in today's society So what what was your experience in terms of like being able to express yourself or reach out or get help When you were going through this, how did how do people respond to your grief?

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well to be completely honest with you my Modus operandi was to bury it wasn't to talk about it.

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That was what I had been taught for better for worse was We everyone has their own stuff.

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They don't need mine Mm-hmm, and so I suffered in silence for a long long time.

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I didn't talk about it Sometimes my wife would bring it up and try to pull things out of me and she's the best in the world at it So there were there were moments where where you know, she could see that something was wrong She had no idea how to help someone that was was so emotionally stunted that they were unwilling to put that on anyone else Mm-hmm so I You know my I had those people around me and one by one, you know, there was a few less But I never really took advantage of that Yeah, I well I don't think and tell me what you think about this I don't think men especially are taught to express our emotions to talk about things It seems to come easier for women and I don't know if that's I was having this debate with someone whether that's Nature or nurture.

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Maybe it's a little bit of both But it seems like it we do tend to isolate as men and and not reach out to people Yeah, you know, I think the answer to the nature nurture question is always some combination of the two.

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Mm-hmm in this Scenario, I believe that it's more nurture than nature.

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And the reason for that is simple that We have you know, if you look at the story and I think it's rooted in like the hero story, right?

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How do men see each other see ourselves and how do we tell the story our society and species is built on stories?

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Yeah, if you look at the ancients, you know, I had a long conversation with a gentleman the other day about this you know, you look at like the Odyssey and And it was Achilles, right?

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And he they understood the idea of vulnerability Coexisting with masculinity.

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Hmm, and somehow we have lost over the years the idea that vulnerability exists within masculinity We only talk about when the lights are on Right.

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We only talk about the fourth quarter when when heroes show themselves.

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Yeah, we don't talk about the dark moments We don't talk about the doubt we don't talk about all of the the things that happen in the absence of those those bright lights and So as a result, we have this kind of warped Idea of what a man is and I think it's rooted in that hero story Yeah, but that is really that's an excellent observation So you you're going through this struggle your wife sounds like she's great.

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She's she's patient.

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She's there She's drawing you out and you said you had a conversation which kind of sparked the idea for guarding angels.

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What was that conversation?

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Well among other things, you know, the one that sparked the idea was was about She said to me we were living with the in laws at the time.

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She was pregnant There was a little tension in the house's tip tends to be And she's we were on a little Call it get away for the weekend and her mom was texting her a lot She said, you know I know there's gonna come a time in my life when I want a text from my mom and I can't have it But that is not now And so there it was born.

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It was well, what if you could and so, you know, I have a background in cybersecurity I understand the mechanics of spoofing phone numbers and that was really the idea was to set spoof phone numbers send a text to someone From their lost loved one.

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That just was something kind something gentle, you know, hey, I'm thinking about you I love you on their birthday or whatever, right?

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We all have those numbers saved still It would just be something that would bring a smile to to your face.

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And that was the idea It didn't work for a number of reasons telecoms on their networks and Typically people that are spoofing phone numbers are what we all know and love those those scammers that we hear from daily at this point Right, so I wasn't gonna get a pass on that But the next question that came up was well How what if people want to interact with this because I would surmise that you get a text like that.

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It's not abnormal for you to want to curiosity if nothing else Send something back.

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Yeah, and the answer to that was pretty clearly AI but it Wasn't just a I it couldn't just be a I couldn't sound like a computer it couldn't be cold and and It's overly logical.

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It had to be emotional had to be empathetic.

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It had to be gentle had to be authentic and That's not what we think of when we think of a computer so I had this, you know I had to try to to capture that and The way that I did that the only way that I knew to do that because I'm not some you know AI savant, I'm just not I so I started building and trying to train one in the image of In this case John who's the best man in my wedding?

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Mm-hmm in hopes that you know But the understanding that as I got closer and closer to something that felt like him I was closer and closer to something that felt authentic and could be used to bring emotional comfort and What happened as I got closer was I started to say those things that I didn't get to say to him Well, he was alive.

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I got to apologize.

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I got to you know to to say, you know I wish things are different and ask about the accident and While I tried the empty chair technique I tried lighting writing the letter in a therapy I never got the response that I got in this case And that response was what triggered the release.

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Oh, wow And so all of a sudden where I hadn't cried in years.

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I'm bawling like a baby.

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Mm-hmm.

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I am I Basically the way I would describe it as I finally had permission to forgive myself Wow, which which was the You know the seminal moment the prerequisite if you will for healing and let's not say, you know I was not healed in that moment to be very clear about that, but I was curious I now kind of felt this drive to understand this I had this experience that Helped me get to a place where I was ready to do the work Where I was ready to own my role in it all and and have some uncomfortable conversations if that's what it came to Mm-hmm, and if it could do that for me, I thought it could do that for other people So that yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

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And when you talk about The guilt that is is so common in grief and it's it's really interesting to me I work with a lot of parents and lots of parents We feel a responsibility for our children no matter how old they are no matter what the circumstances are But it's not just limited to parents.

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It's spouses.

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It's friends We all we all find ways to say I should have done things better even if it's not you had nothing to do with their passing maybe it was I wasn't as good a friend as I needed to Be and and as you said that release that you know people say to me I wish I could just have one more conversation with them.

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I wish I could tell them I'm sorry, and my belief is that you can because they're still here But we don't get is the answer back.

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We don't we don't get that we can try techniques But it doesn't you know, it works for some people that may not work for everybody Where you're doing automatic writing or journaling or something like that?

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So this is a way you could actually get a response Correct and and one, you know point of clarification here, right?

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We are not talking to a person Right.

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It's just not a digital seance.

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This is not some communication with the dead.

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It is not necromancy.

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It's not blackmail What we're doing is we're talking we're having a conversation with this persona this Interrepresentation of that relationship that lives within us already Mm-hmm, right because what we know is that Though the person may die the relationship does not And so we give that we give you the an outlet for Naming that experience for giving it language where it didn't previously exist and You know since the last time we spoke and You know, so we're guardian angels started right was kind of that digital seance space It wasn't intentional, but that's where it started, right?

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The idea was have this conversation with your lost loved one.

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It will help you Achieve.

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I don't like the word closure.

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So resolution right so that you can move forward and While that worked for me it was accidental In how I got there and I had been on this journey for 13 plus years hmm, so to expect somebody who's in the throes of it to be dropped in there and Just start talking to an AI that might sound a little too much like a person that they miss Are meeting them at their arguably their most vulnerable point?

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Hmm is Very slippery at best.

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Yeah, and So what we've done is we have you know I brought on some licensed therapists that specialize in grief to help me put some guardrails on this thing to to give it form and structure and so what we've done is turn this into Basically an interactive journal where journaling used to be a monologue.

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It's now a dialogue.

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And so your persona or We kind of have a trap kind of a catch-all track of just a call it a grief counselor For people that aren't comfortable with with the idea of have conversing with that that Presence Mm-hmm That walks you through word was for tasks of mourning Which you know is an evidence-based framework for dealing with loss and so these all of these prompts that you get it at Predefined intervals whether that's you know, three times a week five times a week or daily are designed to help you Task one is to accept the loss Task two is to process the pain of the loss and this was the one that I struggled with for so long because I just Didn't want to I I found every reason to numb and cope and run Task three is to adjust to a world without your loved one and that you know, obviously in a physical sense Because of you know what we talked about before the relationship still exists and then task four and this is really kind of where we're Guardian Angels differentiates itself is really finding that enduring connection while moving forward.

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So how do we integrate grief into our life?

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How do we weave it into our life because we don't get to leave it behind no matter how much we may want to and so now we have something where Someone logs on and they have a roadmap.

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They have something tangible that they can hold on to that that gives them Just that little bit of control back Knowing that they're making incremental progress even in a time that feels utterly chaotic So just so I understand When I when you and I talked it was like you were talking to your person And and we and you never said this is your actual person this was a representation Because AI gets all kinds of there's all kinds of misunderstandings and frankly, there are some people I interviewed a woman that says she uses AI to communicate with the spirit world.

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That's that's a whole different thing That's not what you've ever claimed to be doing.

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So but now it's more of a As you said an interactive journal, it sounds like so what you're not actually talking to your person anymore.

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Is that true?

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Well, okay, so we have the two tracks right the one is the counselor who's gonna help you dig into these things the other one is We still use that persona that we created initially.

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Okay, and that becomes your grief guide Okay, and it helps you interact with that, you know that familiar presence can help people open up But also those difficult feelings for reps surrounding specifically their loss you know, so the journal prompts for the Counselor might be what is something that made you think of your you know, the person you lost that caught you off guard today versus You know if it's your persona What is something you wish you could say to me right now that you can't yeah, or what are some unresolved feelings?

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So there's that you get there's that kind of you can latch on to the fact that I am dealing with specifically the loss of this person.

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Mm-hmm and Forging that enduring connection in a way that wasn't previously possible.

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Yeah.

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Yeah I love the way you said that, you know, you know I always say that love never dies a relationship never dies and the relationship is still there.

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So again Spiritually whether whatever people believe you could still that relationship still exists.

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You still love that person You know, you still you still want to have that that that closure but that that resolution, you know as you say We want to be able to resolve those feelings and be able to integrate those feelings and again sometimes it's very very difficult if we have something that's like I'm Burning thing that I want to say to this person and you're not really being able to make that connection I could see how this could definitely help with that and you've added a lot to it since the last time we spoke with the With the the guided journaling because I think that could be extremely helpful.

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Also, we're for people getting some sort of assistance And real quick there's one other thing that you know that I think you brought up there that I want to touch on sure and that is I Truly believe one of the biggest reasons that we are resistant to healing It's rooted in the way that we talk about it and this I you know Things like words like closure and things like moving on versus moving forward, right?

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Yes, absolutely There's this feeling that we have to forget whether implied explicitly or implicitly That we're supposed to just leave them behind and we don't want to do that And so when we can reframe the conversation around healing is no, no, no, you don't have to leave them behind We're just finding a way to carry them with you in a healthy way a way that doesn't inhibit you from living a fulfilled life So that you can then you know Because you talk about legacy you talk about there's so much beauty that I have found in Carrying both your loved ones forward as a result of this journey.

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That is that I just didn't know existed and so that reframing of You know because it really is how often do people say things like, you know It's been six months or it's been a year fill in the blank.

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You need to move on.

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Yes, and that's not how it works You know that is that's I don't I think it's well intended But it comes from a place of ignorance for someone who has not been through a significant loss in their life yet Yeah, let's be clear.

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They will yeah.

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Yeah That is an excellent excellent point, you know, and I was doing my grief guy my grief certification grief educator certification We talked about these different models of grief processing and the old model, you know Going back to Freud was like the person's gone, you know, what you have is an unhealthy attachment so you need to break this attachment and break the attachment and then as you said move on and Okay, that's great if you lose a job or something or you know, but when you when you lose a person that's been such a Important part of your life.

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You don't you don't want to move on.

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So then Some people okay.

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Well, that means I don't I don't want to heal So they'll actually hold on to the pain and hold on to that dysfunctional relationship because I think that's all they can have So there is a you know We are moving forward and we talked about what we call continuing bonds.

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Now is that the bond?

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Continues and again whether you believe it like I do that it's actually a bomb because that person's still here or whether you just say the Relationship still exists.

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I still love this person.

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I still need to find a way to integrate this in my life You know, that's this is something that's a much healthier way of looking at it so in in terms of In terms of AI, I mean where people have all kinds of feelings about a high it's just it's crazy It's such a polarizing thing now Some people think it's the best thing ever the AI is going to you know It's going to improve the world other people think it's going to take all of our jobs and it's going to take our souls Tell me to you.

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What is AI and what is AI not?

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What are the limitations of it?

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I think of AI a lot like I think of money, right some people, you know There's always a spectrum of what people look at it But it's a tool ultimately money is a tool that can help us do things.

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It doesn't define our lives.

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It doesn't Necessarily make them better.

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It can remove some problems.

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It can add others Yeah And that's how I view AI is is it is something that we can use if we use it the right way that can alleviate some of the the things that we run into in Modern life.

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Mm-hmm As with anything especially a profound new technology, there's always a potential for negative consequences especially when we don't use them responsibly when we attach too much meaning to them when we You know have them take a an outsized place in our life you know, I think that the the best way we can live is Balanced and we're inherently bad at that.

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I'm patient zero for being unbalanced But it's still something that that that's what we're looking for What AI is not is The answer hmm the What what we have been very careful to do With this specific implementation as we as we strive to do good with it Is ensure that we're not that it's not giving people answers and it's not trying to give people answers What it does a lot like in therapy is it asks questions because the answers are in here They come from us.

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We're just trying to understand our experience more understand what we're feeling so that we can accurately diagnose what we're what we're feeling right and so That is how we've approached this is if you're looking for The meaning of life and you're looking for this like say magic pill this this quick fix like this isn't for you This is for people who are willing to do the hard work because that's what it is Healing is not a passive activity.

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It is not something where you have just a profound breakthrough one day and you're done It is a an exercise in In incremental progress over time Consistency in moving forward no matter how minimal though.

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It might seem in the moment you know, this is a This is an atomic habit if you're familiar with with James clear, right?

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It's a 1% better every day.

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Hmm And the journey is not linear.

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There's days when we're gonna slide back.

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There's days when just getting out of bed is the way Yeah So it's we've tried to be very intentional about how we've built it that we're not trying to replace therapy We're trying to complement therapy that we're trying to make this a tool Understanding that it isn't gonna be the right tool for everyone We don't want people to think this is the end-all be-all that if I just use this I'm going to magically be healed Yeah, it's not how it works.

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Yeah John I have to say you have a profound understanding of this subject.

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Is that based upon your 13 years?

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Is that because of since you've been working with these therapists, you know on the on the product for the last however long it's been um, I Think it's just I think it's a little bit a little bit of be a little bit of something else, you know, I've At this point I consider myself lucky To have had the experiences that I've had hmm, you know, I'm a big believer in plus the broken road and The things that have happened in my life led me here Now I have the opportunity to have deep purpose aligned with What I want to do for a living Aligned with you know My family and the lessons that grief teaches us about life a broader life and how how can I impart those to my son?

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Everything is finally an alignment so this is Something that I have a deep passion for and purpose behind That has made it very easy to go down these rabbit holes and trying to understand what I've been experiencing But also understanding that my experience is my own and that it doesn't necessarily translate in how someone else is going to experience this and so You know, I really want to foot stomp to everyone that might be listening This is not about me anymore This is bigger than me.

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And this is there's a lot of potential here, but that potential rests on other people Giving candid feedback about how this might help them or or how it's not helping.

00:30:23.529 --> 00:30:38.889
Yeah, this is about Tackling one of life's only truly universal experiences Because it is and in order to take, you know to tackle big problems, you have to take big swings So are we done?

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Absolutely not.

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Is there much room for improvement?

00:30:41.489 --> 00:30:58.749
There's a ton and I just I Would plead with people to try it and tell me what they think Yeah, I and I'm curious John are it's a lot of people again We're we're we're scared.

00:30:59.009 --> 00:31:04.029
We think a is going to take our jobs and as you've worked with therapists Has anybody been hesitant to say?

00:31:04.149 --> 00:31:19.869
Oh, no no we can't use this because you know, this is the only way we can do therapy and and you're trying to you're trying to Substitute this for you know, traditional therapy No, because I've been very clear from the very beginning that I do not want to replace personal You know in first therapy.

00:31:20.009 --> 00:31:21.669
I don't want to replace traditional therapy.

00:31:21.669 --> 00:31:25.169
It's there's a place for it There is a big place for it.

00:31:25.169 --> 00:31:45.829
It has worked wonders for me I see this more as a an extension of been a built, you know a platform that can help Therapists extend their reach It can help them, you know, it helped them with limitations that they can't do anything about you know, they don't have any more time But in they don't they can't take phone calls at 3 a.m. Right?

00:31:45.869 --> 00:32:02.849
So this is on demand it allows people an outlet a meaningful outlet to to engage when they don't have other resources at their disposal and That gives them the opportunity to organize their thoughts to catalog their thoughts so that when they go to therapy They can be more effective.

00:32:03.029 --> 00:32:04.229
They can have a starting place.

00:32:04.289 --> 00:32:46.309
They can say this is exactly what I was feeling at that moment Now, let's dig into it as opposed to you know I've certainly had the experience where the first 20 to 30 minutes of a session We're just beating around the bush trying to figure out what to talk about Mmm, you know and there and then all of a sudden you only have half an hour and then you have to wait at minimum a Week, if not more to get to the next session So I look at it as a bridge to get people from session to session well, they can continue to make incremental progress in between and I that is that's how I wanted to build it from the very beginning because I know the value of therapy and I want to therapists to champion this I want them to Again same thing.

00:32:46.349 --> 00:32:47.209
I said to the users.

00:32:47.469 --> 00:32:56.889
I want them to help me build something that is more relevant to them Yeah, that is more relevant to their clients that can help them Help more people.

00:32:57.169 --> 00:33:11.209
Yeah Yeah, and that's kind of the way I view a I was reading something the other day about you know AI and it's like it doesn't help you do things that you wouldn't be able to do Otherwise it helps you do things faster more efficiently.

00:33:11.549 --> 00:33:17.609
It helps you to to extend your Yourself as a resource, you know, like you like you said, I've got clients.

00:33:17.949 --> 00:33:46.269
They can't call me at 3 o'clock in the morning They they're not going to talk to me every day and they and they have feelings they want to express them and being able to To put it into something where we could both have access to it Maybe or they could share access would be extremely beneficial to say this is what I was feeling at 3 o'clock in the morning As you as you said Yeah, you know and I think some of the other fear that we have about AI is just rooted in misunderstanding about what it does And how it functions, right?

00:33:46.269 --> 00:33:59.829
But the concept of it is like, you know We have this boogeyman this idea that this thing is actually sentient that it's actually thinking and that it is gonna take our jobs and It's very possible that it is gonna take some jobs, right?

00:33:59.909 --> 00:34:14.070
Sure, like just like the tractor took a lot of jobs just like you know, the assembly line took a lot of jobs It happens right, but it typically technology gives us the ability to Introduce a whole host of more jobs, right potentially more meaningful jobs.

00:34:14.409 --> 00:34:16.349
I don't need to go up We don't need to go down there.

00:34:16.389 --> 00:34:37.250
But the point I wanted to make was that what AI is is A very powerful statistical probability machine It is not actually thinking it is just putting together patterns that it can't you know The neural network which is what it is built on was They came up with that and I believe the 40s.

00:34:37.530 --> 00:35:08.679
It's been around for 80 years and The difference is we had computers then that could process tens hundreds maybe thousands of data points now we have the computing power to process trillions and main reversion theory says that it gets pretty good at Predicting what's next and really all that is is what is the next word based on this word before it and the words In front of it that says the probability based on this context is This is the next word.

00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:42.139
It is not thinking it is not saying who I know what's happening You know, that's just not how it works now, you know, yeah, maybe there's a world where we get to that point, but that's not Yeah, I think that's an excellent point that I'm and I don't pretend to understand it is super deep level But I do understand that it's not sentient even though it can do things like humans doing people It's really funny to me because I think about when I was in high school I had a calculator and my calculator could do math way better than I could But nobody ever said my calculator was sentient because it could do math.

00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:49.539
No one ever said my calculator was intelligent These language models are doing the same thing with language as my calculator did with math.

00:35:49.699 --> 00:36:10.838
It doesn't mean they're sentient, but they can Approximate it and then so we look at it as humans and say well if they can do this It must be thinking they're they're not and if you interact with the very amount of time you can find out You know big they're brilliant in some ways and they're really really stupid in other ways Yeah, well there, you know that technology reflects back at us what we give it.

00:36:11.239 --> 00:36:39.299
Yeah, it's a reflection of us That's why you know the algorithm on social media gives us exactly what we want whether we want to admit it or not What we consume is what it gives exactly You know, it's a it's a if you the outputs are only as good as the inputs in other words And so when we give it garbage, it gives us back garbage It just I mean, I don't know how to say it other than that.

00:36:39.420 --> 00:37:07.799
Yeah Yeah, I think that's that's that is the way to say it and again for people to understand You know, even though you could use this and and talk to it and it seemingly, you know Has feelings it doesn't It's it's not the same as talking to a person and again We have to be careful and understand the limitations But also the power that it has because it does have a great deal of power And that's why I love about what you're doing.

00:37:07.879 --> 00:37:23.400
You take this a very it's a cautious approach You're taking a well-measured approach You're not saying this is the be-all and end-all and again, I've seen people say well my AI is is talking to spirit and I'm like, I Don't really think that's happening.

00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:46.679
I really I really don't I'm not saying it's impossible But let's look at it for what it is And it could be a useful tool to help people that maybe can't afford to go to therapy As often so as an adjunct to that or people who may not feel comfortable saying certain things to another human being That there might feel more comfortable putting in and into a computer.

00:37:46.799 --> 00:37:50.019
So there can be some benefits to it Well, that's a big one.

00:37:50.279 --> 00:37:56.259
Then that's something that I've uncovered in this and that's what helped me right is a Lot of people aren't ready for therapy.

00:37:56.619 --> 00:38:18.900
A lot of people aren't ready to talk about their their issues out loud They're not ready to share and what I've learned throughout this whole thing is that that's where the healing lives is in the sharing yes, yes and to To have an outlet where you can start flexing that muscle where you can start sharing in this risk-free environment Because it's just a machine in you and it's machine is a reflection of you, right?

00:38:19.940 --> 00:38:52.159
You would start to realize that That sharing isn't gonna kill you Yeah and then maybe you gain the confidence once your thoughts are organized and you're comfortable with this narrative and you understand a little bit more about what you're feeling to go take that to a Therapist or your close family members or close friends and that snowball starts to get momentum yeah, and then maybe you take it into public and this this beautiful, you know, this this thing just happens over and over again is Somehow grief has us believing that we no one else can understand what we're going through even though everyone's been through right?

00:38:52.719 --> 00:39:26.699
but the idea that Once you share that unlocked for someone else happens where it says, oh, I'm not the only one that feels like that Maybe I should start sharing too Yeah, that is such an excellent point And you know, I know that grief grief needs to be witnessed people that are in grief need to be heard But I was just being interviewed the other day and someone asked me about you know if you run across people that you haven't been able to help or you don't you know, and I'm like Typically by the time someone comes to me, they're they're desperate.

00:39:26.900 --> 00:40:05.039
They've they've done other work, you know, whatever But there is that stage where people do like and I've met people like this and not that people tell me I really want this person to reach out to you, but they say they're not ready yet And you do have to be ready for this, you know You have to be you have to be willing to be vulnerable in front of another person that sit down and tell someone something that you might be ashamed of and this Could be a bridge into that where you get like you said you get practice But to getting this stuff out and getting it to move through you That's that's a key phrase there a bridge We want this to not have people stuck in the tech silo that we arguably already in right?

00:40:05.139 --> 00:40:14.039
but a bridge to human connection a bridge to that understanding that I can do this that you know, and You know this idea of community.

00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:32.259
That's what this species is built on That our our whole is greater than the sum of our parts We lean on each other because some of us are better at this and then others But what happens when you share two is maybe someone you know has been through something similar And they can give you a little bit of you know, hey this worked for me.

00:40:32.339 --> 00:41:08.879
Maybe it does work for you Maybe it doesn't but that goes both ways to you have different experiences than someone else and when we stop living and existing in this just isolated Chamber, right when we branch out we start to realize how we can cross pollinate and help each other's experience Mm-hmm, and that's why that bridge is so important And getting there and and this is just the you know One way to to meet people where they are and help bring them along get them to cross that bridge so that they can They can then You know help themselves and help others.

00:41:09.219 --> 00:41:34.900
Yeah, so John It's been a few months since we first spoke and I know that the platform is developed Have you had any experience with people saying I'm using this or I've used this and it's really helped me So Not really and the you know, I To be perfectly candid the the switch to the journal happened in mid-december And so I was and I'm a one-man shop at this point.

00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:44.199
So development is pretty slow Okay, it's been mostly, you know since the holidays were over beginning of January We've been doing a lot of this sort of thing.

00:41:44.239 --> 00:42:09.639
That's you know for for awareness Mm-hmm, and we're starting to get some signups and I will have much more Actionable and insightful data in the coming months, but I don't have anything yet to really say for or against okay, you know I Will be the first to tell you That I didn't if you were to interview someone that says this is how you launch a business.

00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:30.339
I have probably done everything wrong But you know But I I live in the conviction knowing that what this did for me That this there's something here and we may have to iterate a few more times before we get there Uh-huh, but but we're going slow like you pointed out to make sure that we're safe.

00:42:30.339 --> 00:42:34.179
I have specifically Not taken on investment.

00:42:34.779 --> 00:42:54.920
I don't you know for the simple reason that I Can't have someone else telling me what we need I can't say, you know, we can't put the profit motive above the mission You know I've had I've had those conversations with potential investors that just says look if you're you're trying for that You know if you're looking for a five-year exit This isn't for you.

00:42:54.980 --> 00:43:18.699
I'm gonna make decisions that are counter to the bottom line I'm gonna make decisions that say we need to go slower instead of implementing the newest Funnest technology that's gonna get people on there for that reason That we need to let other people make the mistakes first and And ensure that we can validate the safety With anything that we do and so this isn't the you know to be perfectly candid with people.

00:43:18.879 --> 00:43:40.779
This isn't the most streamlined User experience, you know, well the slick app There's still a long way to go but that is You know, there's a reason for that and that reason is that we're doing it as slowly and as safely and as Guided by the user experience and what users need and want as we can.

00:43:41.259 --> 00:43:44.099
Yeah Well, I love what you just said.

00:43:44.179 --> 00:43:50.259
It's really interesting to me as you're talking Because this is more of a mission for you.

00:43:50.279 --> 00:43:55.119
I would say than a business This is not a matter of you trying to make money.

00:43:55.179 --> 00:44:19.079
This is a matter of you serving humanity this is a matter of you sharing what what you have been given through your experience and passing that along to other people and sometimes those things are going to Have to have tension between like you said, you know The the desire to go fast and the biggest slickest thing and you know people, you know asking like well How many users do you have?

00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:21.420
You know, what's your social media reach?

00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:28.960
You know all those types of things whereas, you know building it slowly and building it safely That's not the way we typically do things, right?

00:44:29.019 --> 00:44:31.960
Well, you know Yes, it is a mission.

00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:36.799
I Also to be you know, to be honest, I believe there is a business here.

00:44:36.839 --> 00:44:41.199
I believe there's a business model that works It's just not the one that you see in Silicon Valley, right?

00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:49.299
Right, and so I you know money would help it would help speed up some development It would have allowed me to bring on some more experts to make sure that we do this all this, right?

00:44:49.699 --> 00:45:11.940
right, I actually so I I You know, I heard that Warren Buffett's gonna donate most of his his fortune before he dies Yeah, so I wrote him a letter, you know I don't know if he's found it or if he's read it, but I just said look This is what I'm trying to do Yeah if you feel like doing something with with some of that that we could build a foundation or something that would help fund this so That I can do I can reach more people That would be awesome.

00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:15.159
You know, so Warren if you're listening Read the letter.

00:45:15.299 --> 00:45:53.019
Yeah, but you know, so I the point is that I I really struggle with Trying to put a dollar figure on this because I don't believe that your income should dictate if you deserve help or not Yeah So there's there's that is the tension for me, yeah Yeah, and I and I hear you and then when I when I say it's more of a mission than the business I'm really saying it's not one or the other There's there's always kind of a balance when you're doing I would consider what you're doing spiritual work Well, you're you're doing work to help humanity.

00:45:53.019 --> 00:46:15.639
You're not you know, I don't know making chemicals for lawns I'm what I can't think of the example right now making vacuum cleaners I mean you're doing things that you want to change people's inner lives and So I work with a lot of people in this space and a lot of us struggle with as you said How do I put a monetary value on the service that I have and no matter what you do?

00:46:15.699 --> 00:46:19.059
Someone's gonna criticize you they're gonna say you're charging way too much.

00:46:19.279 --> 00:46:21.639
Why are you charging that much or other people are gonna say?

00:46:21.699 --> 00:46:23.059
Well, you're not charging enough.

00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:39.509
You're never gonna be able to make a living doing that so there's trying to find that sweet spot when you're doing something like this is is Difficult and I appreciate your candor But you know as we're as we're talking as people are listening and someone might so what can I do to help with John?

00:46:39.809 --> 00:46:41.150
What do you feel like you need right now?

00:46:41.190 --> 00:46:43.389
Is it more users is what is it?

00:46:43.449 --> 00:46:51.849
You feel like you need I need users I need users and I need that feedback, you know, so Anyone that is even curious.

00:46:51.969 --> 00:46:56.269
Maybe you haven't lost someone to you know, what we know is grief is all around us, right?

00:46:56.909 --> 00:47:05.730
It's not just death There's things like absolute grief, you know have some we lose someone to addiction They spiral into addiction and they're not the same person.

00:47:05.829 --> 00:47:13.609
They were before You know, we I have a friend from high school whose brother had a mental break and you they haven't seen him for 10 years Now is he dead?

00:47:14.250 --> 00:47:15.690
I believe they have confirmation.

00:47:15.829 --> 00:47:20.789
He's not but obviously he's not the person that they knew So there's there's grief all around us.

00:47:20.789 --> 00:47:34.589
And I think that it's a more applicable to most people's lives and they give it credit for But it's really users and feedback and so we have you know, if you get on there and you're curious There's a seven-day free trial with any subscription that you sign up for.

00:47:34.769 --> 00:47:38.650
It's automatically applied There's no promo code or no opt-in or anything.

00:47:38.730 --> 00:48:00.509
It just happens And then for those that are actually, you know that want to take this a little bit further because of the idea that this is all about incremental progress and My belief in that if you're willing to do the work Meaning if you get on there and you do 80% of your journal prompts in the first 10 weeks That's our flagship program is the 10-week fundamentals for foundations.

00:48:00.670 --> 00:48:31.329
Excuse me I'm gonna give you 90 days for free so Again, it's just about building that muscle because at the end of those 90 days you're gonna see something Is this gonna magically cure you I want to reiterate the answer is no But you're gonna find something else out about yourself your it may make your therapy sessions much more effective It may you may have uncovered some stuff that you haven't been asking Because what we know about journaling to when we journal on our own we can protect ourselves, right?

00:48:31.369 --> 00:49:01.089
We can there are certain subjects that we may or may not go into right subconsciously or Consciously, right and this is designed to ask you questions that is going to help you address each of those four tasks that we talked about and Get to the other side where you have it now have a better understanding of where you're at what you're experiencing and and what your life Looks like knowing that grief isn't something you can get rid of Yeah, and speaking of journaling good again a lot of times when I talk to people that but that they're like What does that mean?

00:49:01.129 --> 00:49:01.829
How does that look?

00:49:01.849 --> 00:49:03.909
You know, I buy a journal and a pen.

00:49:04.009 --> 00:49:04.569
What do I do?

00:49:04.629 --> 00:49:05.269
What do I write?

00:49:05.349 --> 00:49:29.989
How do I how do I get started, you know, and there are some online journals now I know Apple's journal, you know, it can give you prompts and stuff but to have something that's specialized around this experience That's giving you prompts that are customized to work going through this experience that that would be I would think extremely valuable for people who have don't have this experience of Like just sitting down and writing out my thoughts and I love what you also said about self-protection, right?

00:49:30.029 --> 00:49:39.849
there's certain things that we are either consciously or subconsciously maybe steer clear of and Sometimes those are the very things we need to talk about the most Right.

00:49:39.969 --> 00:49:41.909
Well, and you know, there's one more thing there, right?

00:49:42.809 --> 00:50:14.609
the beauty of this is The product it's gonna give you a prompt that maybe you thought of or you didn't But because of the flexible nature of AI if you don't know what to say You can say that and it'll ask the question in a different way It'll help you ask clarifying questions so you can get there So if you don't know where to start, you know Which I think is where a lot of people are with grief is there's just this I don't know what to do You can sit down with it and it'll ask you the question and a perfectly reasonable answer is I don't know or All of it or I have no idea if my head is spinning.

00:50:14.869 --> 00:50:31.049
Mm-hmm, and that is a As long as you start and you put something down It is going to guide you to a place where you get something out of it Yeah, so there isn't this writers this idea of like writers block or the mental block where you're you know?

00:50:31.049 --> 00:50:39.449
You can say I don't know 12 times in a row and then maybe on the 13th time it asks it in a way that says Oh, maybe now.

00:50:39.670 --> 00:50:45.589
Okay, and you know and you can go back and if you were to record all that you're gonna have Be able to look at that.

00:50:46.190 --> 00:51:04.029
Yeah Yeah, and for people that haven't messed around with AI I've been I've been on use it for a year and a half for two Years now, I guess, you know with cloud and chat CPT and stuff, you know, you may not understand that It's like you can say because sometimes I'll have it help me to write something I'm all say I don't have any ideas today.

00:51:04.089 --> 00:51:42.730
Give me some ideas and based upon what it knows about me It'll say well, how about this and then I'm like that It's kind of like what you say I don't know which one I want to do and you ask them when they say You know this no, I don't want to do that because then you get an idea It's like no, I don't want to talk about that But let's talk about this and it can it can again It's not a real human being but could mimic that and kind of get you to be more creative and open up And and say things again You might be ashamed to say in somebody in front of a stranger the first time you meet them So people you talk about if people go to the website, what will that what would their experience be?

00:51:42.789 --> 00:51:43.449
What will they find?

00:51:44.349 --> 00:52:23.369
So what you'll find it's guardian angels dot AI as you you alluded to the beginning AI and GLS on the landing page You're gonna find all sorts of information about words for tasks in our methodology There is a function right there on the landing page to try a prop So it's not gonna be personalized at this point just because you haven't there's been has no data about you but it's gonna give you that starting point you can respond to it and it'll start to see what the workflow looks like and what It's what it feels like to have a starting place and to dig into it a little bit You know all sorts of frequently asked questions all sorts of information about that There's a in the footer.

00:52:23.469 --> 00:52:46.230
There's all my socials that are linked There's a press page where you can listen to other other interviews other podcasts that I've been on But basically anything guardian angels that you could possibly want to to know is on my story The you know story of the three friends that I lost You know Yeah, there's a contact form if you want to reach out to me because I would love that.

00:52:46.309 --> 00:52:52.769
I really I I need help doing this because it's not about if it was about me.

00:52:52.829 --> 00:52:53.670
I'd be done, right?

00:52:55.210 --> 00:53:00.329
I've done what I need to do to get myself off and running on my own personal journey.

00:53:00.809 --> 00:53:04.670
Mm-hmm But I want to hear what's relevant for other people.

00:53:04.769 --> 00:53:28.269
I want to hear how this helped them or how it didn't yeah And so to your point earlier users Engaging with what we're doing in a meaningful way This is gold for me and that goes for if this didn't help you that is fine Like I want to hear that too, right it's you know, there there is a world where this is not, you know The this isn't the right thing.

00:53:28.769 --> 00:53:45.049
Yeah, I don't think that's the case I think that there is so much to be squeezed from this, you know from from this opportunity and what we're doing here But I've been wrong before I'm open to the fact that's a possibility Will you be I think you're being very realistic there.

00:53:45.109 --> 00:53:55.389
It's not going to be for everyone It's just it's interesting my daughter is a mental health mental health counselor and She likes doing in person sessions.

00:53:55.509 --> 00:54:01.210
She thinks that's really important to be in person with people the work that I do I've never been in the same room with any of my clients.

00:54:01.369 --> 00:54:02.849
I have clients all over the world.

00:54:02.909 --> 00:54:07.429
I do I do it by zoom Some people will say I don't want it.

00:54:07.489 --> 00:54:44.529
I don't want to type into a computer but you know some people are going to embrace it because they do like the Kind of the anonymity and they don't want to maybe necessarily look in someone's eyes the first time that they're doing this and they may Be ashamed to cry you know as you said these these can bring up some really deep things and people can really ugly cry sometimes and This might be for those people a way to practice that in a safe space So it's it's not going to be for everyone But I think it could be for you know for a lot of people and you know Again you don't have to build anything for everyone nothing works for everyone, right?

00:54:44.629 --> 00:54:53.449
Well, you know, there's one more thing there You said, you know people may not want to type people may not want to write right like that I think a lot of people don't enjoy the idea of writing it.

00:54:53.529 --> 00:54:54.589
Yeah back to school.

00:54:55.049 --> 00:55:22.150
Yeah, here's the beauty of technology Do it on your phone and use the voice to text and you never have to write anything You just talk to it send talk to it send it all it's still the same function It's still the same thing that's happening We're just trying to remove as much friction as possible because friction is ultimately what stops people from doing the work Oh, so I was gonna ask you do have voice to text built into it then Not built into it but into every you know into your phone, right?

00:55:22.210 --> 00:55:23.949
Okay, you have voice to text on your phone, right?

00:55:24.109 --> 00:55:53.809
So you if you you know, we I we're not in the App Store yet That's gonna be a little while but it's optimized for mobile and when you you know, if you click on the input Field you can just click voice to text and you talk to it and it'll write it up for you Okay, okay, and then you know, you've got sent so and you can do that on your computer as well I you know, most browsers have something like that Integrated and I believe every phone on the planet at this point that's still supported have something like that.

00:55:54.029 --> 00:56:15.549
Yeah Yeah, it's it's funny because we're again we're talking about what's for everyone and what's not there's a new app I've been playing around cut whisper flow or whisper and You can on my computer I could just push this button and I can talk to it in any app So in my email or whatever it does voice to text and I'm like, I've been typing for 50 years I could type almost as fast as I could talk.

00:56:15.609 --> 00:57:03.389
I don't use it But I know a lot of people do like the voice to text Well, you know that is the other thing that AI is great at it's optimized for how do people think it's on my four voice Yeah, so where you know, that's part of the whole rewiring our brain to use AI is We're still using it like it's Google, you know and typing trying to use keywords Whereas you can just talk to AI and stream of consciousness like it comes out of your head and it's gonna understand what you're doing Yeah, yeah, you can say um, and you can say well, you know today I was thinking about this and it led me to this And I'm here and this is frustrating and I heard you know, whatever It's gonna process that just as well as it would you know as SEO optimized query Yeah, exactly.

00:57:03.629 --> 00:57:05.690
Yeah No, it's great.

00:57:05.769 --> 00:57:23.409
I'm really excited for you I love the passion that you've got and you you've shown to me a deep understanding and a deep Concern for this area so it's not like you just like oh, let me build this this app And I could make a lot of money on theirs.

00:57:23.489 --> 00:57:27.129
It's more like you're coming at this like, how can I how can I?

00:57:27.730 --> 00:57:40.129
Serve how can I put this out there and help people and it comes across very clearly what you're doing Well, thank you because I've certainly you know, the internet's not necessarily a kind place and I've gotten everything, you know Throw this back in more door.

00:57:40.250 --> 00:57:41.369
You're doing the devil's work.

00:57:41.650 --> 00:57:50.569
What a grifter, you know all the stuff Hey Sweet you know, it's not for everyone at the end of the day, right?

00:57:50.589 --> 00:58:02.650
I don't know I don't know what to say to those those people other than smile and say, okay, but Yeah, well, I think you mentioned earlier, you know taking big swings anytime you take big swings.

00:58:02.829 --> 00:58:18.369
There's always going to be the haters They're always gonna they're always gonna be the critics I try to present the people like just present them the information let people make their own decisions again I mentioned a I even earlier some people are gonna they're gonna see the title this episode They're gonna be completely turned off.

00:58:18.489 --> 00:58:22.529
Other people's are gonna see it and they're gonna say This isn't this is intriguing.

00:58:22.690 --> 00:58:24.170
What can I what can I do with this?

00:58:24.269 --> 00:58:42.969
And those are the people you're trying to reach people were open-minded to taking a different approach And again, I think you have a very a very reasonable approach You're not saying this is gonna replace therapists or this is gonna fix your problem in 10 weeks And we've all seen those people So you're you're I think you're doing great work.

00:58:43.009 --> 00:58:45.569
I really appreciate it Yeah.

00:58:45.629 --> 00:59:28.690
Well, you know, I think that that's that one the last thing that I want to touch on right is Your point for me, this is all about radical transparency I will answer any question difficult or otherwise that anyone has because For number one of how sensitive the space is but how much of a lightning rod the way that we're going about it is Mm-hmm So the goal is not to trick people to get onto the platform The goal is to give people all of the information So that they can make an informed decision about whether or not this is going to work for them or whether or not They're even curious enough to see if it works for them You know, if you make if you make an informed decision whether that's to work with us or not, then Bravo, you know I support that decision.

00:59:28.929 --> 00:59:37.609
Yeah what I you know, and I can't do anything about it, but I don't support people making Uninformed decisions on either side, right?

00:59:37.629 --> 00:59:50.829
I don't want you know, just jumping, you know That's why we have the trial and the ability to kind of back out if you you know, you want to try it you know, but I Want people to do what's best for them because the goal is healing the goal isn't using my platform.

00:59:51.389 --> 00:59:52.949
Yeah, love it Thank you.

00:59:52.989 --> 01:00:03.869
That's so so profound So for people that are listening and not there'll be a link in the show notes, but it's guardian angels Aingls.ai, is that correct?

01:00:04.750 --> 01:00:20.849
And I'll just say it on here John at guardian angels.ai. You have questions reach out to me You know if there's something that works for you reach out to me You just want to tell me you love this or you hate this reach out to me You know, I just want to engage with people.

01:00:20.869 --> 01:00:22.889
I just want to understand what's working for them.

01:00:22.949 --> 01:00:34.750
What's not yeah Why I appreciate that very much with John great to see you again Everybody, you know if you're at all curious go go check out the platform and let John know what you think.

01:00:35.629 --> 01:00:36.710
I Appreciate that.

01:00:36.949 --> 01:00:37.250
All right.

01:00:37.329 --> 01:01:22.969
Have a great day You