The Million Stages of Grief: Surviving the Unthinkable with Michael Reed | EP 465

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Close your eyes and imagine.

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What if the things in life that caused us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges.

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Challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be.

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We feel like we've been buried, but what if, like a seed, we've been planted?

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And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree.

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Now, open your eyes.

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Open your eyes to this way of viewing life.

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Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature.

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This is Grief to Growth, and I am your host, Brian Smith.

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Hey there, I'm Brian Smith, and I welcome you to Grief to Growth, and whether this is your first time joining me, you've been on this journey with me for a while, I'm grateful that you're here.

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This podcast is about navigating life's most difficult challenges and seeking to understand the deeper questions of our experience.

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Who are we?

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Why are we here?

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What happens when we die?

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My goals help you grow through grief and come out stronger on the other side, and today I'm honored to welcome Michael Reed.

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Michael is the author of the powerful book, The Million Stages of Grief.

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Michael's story is one of almost unimaginable loss.

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He lost his wife and daughters in the tragic 2016 Gatlinburg fires.

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But for that devastating moment, Michael's emerged with the message of honesty, of resilience, and of hope.

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And unlike the widely accepted Five Stages of Grief, Michael believes that grief is far more complex and deeply personal.

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So in this episode, we're going to talk about what he's learned about healing, faith, and finding meaning and pain.

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We'll also discuss how breaking the silence around grief can help others heal, why we need to let go of timelines and expectations when it comes to mourning, and how faith can become both a refuge and a challenge during life's darkest seasons.

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Michael's become a voice for those who are often left to suffer in silence.

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His work through speaking, writing, and building community has touched countless lives, and today he brings that same compassion and insight into our conversation.

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So whether you're grieving a loss yourself, whether you're walking along someone who's experienced a loss, or you're trying to understand the role that pain plays in our growth, I hope this episode speaks to you.

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And don't forget after the episode, join us on my substack at grief2growth.substack.com and we'll carry on the conversation there.

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So with that, I'd like to welcome Michael Reed.

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Good morning.

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How are you?

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Good.

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Good to have you here, Michael.

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I'm grateful to be here.

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I want to say I'm so sorry for your loss.

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So tell me about your wife and tell me about your daughters.

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First, I want to say I'm sorry for your loss as well.

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We belong to a club that nobody should ever belong to.

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And we'll talk about that more here in a little bit.

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My wife is forever 34.

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Her name is Constance.

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We met randomly one night.

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She was my neighbor and I didn't know it, and she needed to borrow a phone and there was a knock on my door.

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And for the second I opened the door, I just knew.

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I can't explain it.

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I didn't even know her name yet.

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I just I knew that was the one.

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And so I invited her in and we spent like half the night talking and then the next night she came over and I made her my awesome spaghetti thinking that could win her over.

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It didn't because I'm not that good of a cook.

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But we were inseparable ever since and she was my best friend.

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Bless me with three of the most amazing children you could ever ask for.

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My son is now 24.

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He's got a beard that's bigger than me.

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It's amazing how quickly they grow up.

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I'm proud of him.

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He's a good kid.

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He's got a great heart.

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And then there's my girls.

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Chloe is forever 12 and Lily is forever 9.

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Chloe brought out the best in everybody.

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Her heart.

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She was my princess from the second she was born.

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And she knew it.

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And she took advantage of it.

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Yeah.

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Growing up she used to tell people that she's going to marry me when she grows up.

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And I tried to explain to her that that's illegal in just about every state.

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But she didn't care.

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She still wanted to marry daddy.

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And we were inseparable.

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I didn't find this out until after the fires.

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But she was in school one day.

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And her teacher just made the comment to the class that she was having a hard day having a bad day.

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And the next day Chloe came into class and said this is my favorite ladybug stuffed animal.

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And I know you were having a bad day.

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So I want you to have it.

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And she gave it to her.

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And that was right before the fires.

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Because after the fires that teacher found me and gave me that ladybug back.

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And that's all I have of Chloe.

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Lily, you want to talk about sass?

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She had that perfect hand on the hip.

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She had the perfect snap of her fingers.

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She was a diva through and through.

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And she kept us on our toes.

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She would get up in the morning and get dressed for school and something that she knew darn well I would never let her wear to school.

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And she'd come waltzing out of the bedroom like what do you think daddy?

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And I'm like turn right around and put some normal clothes on.

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And she'd just laugh and laugh and laugh and then go back in and change your clothes.

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And you know it's easy to say that they were my world.

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But the truth is they still are my world.

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The people that we lose never leave us.

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And it's been almost nine years since the fires and I've learned a lot of lessons along the way.

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And that was my reason for writing the book was because we don't talk about grief enough.

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Especially men.

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And there's no shame in crying.

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There's no shame in being sad.

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There's no shame in being broken.

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And I think it's almost taboo to talk about it.

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And I found through my journey that I have to talk about it or I'm gonna die.

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I was suicidal for years.

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The only thing that stopped me was my son.

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There was just so much built up in my head that it was like a pressure cooker.

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And I didn't know how to release any of that tension other than to start writing down my feelings.

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So one day I just I got up and I grabbed my phone and I just went to my notes section.

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I just started writing down how I felt that day.

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And I put the date at the top and I saved it.

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So that six months from then I could go back and read it again and say okay this is how I felt on this day.

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Have I made any progress yet?

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And nine times out of ten it was no.

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So one day I just posted one of those things on Facebook.

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I just needed to kind of get it out.

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And the response was overwhelming.

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The one line that I hear the most from people is that's exactly how I felt.

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I just didn't know how to put it in the words.

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And that's kind of what started my journey towards the book.

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But in 2023 came kind of an epiphany.

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The anniversary of the fires is November 28th and every November I crash.

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It's not just a crash on the day of the anniversary, it's a crash for the entire month.

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I still have horrible PTSD.

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I still have horrible triggers of the leaves falling and the wind blowing and the trees swaying and all of that is happening in November.

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And I know that date of the 28th is coming soon.

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And in 2023 I ended up in the hospital.

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And I thought for sure I was having a heart attack.

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And I laid there for hours and I'll never forget it.

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The doctor walked in the room and he sat down next to me and he held my hand and he said your heart's fine.

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And I realized while my heart is fine it's broken.

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And that was my wake up call.

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On the anniversary of the fires that year I went to the memorial.

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I always lay out flowers and I always lay out a little gift for the girls.

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And I had a long talk with them.

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And I said I have got to do something to change what this date on the calendar means.

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Because if I have to go through another year of this torture I'm not going to make it.

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And I sat down and I closed my eyes and I'll get into this part later.

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But they come to me as different things.

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My wife comes to me as a butterfly.

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She had a butterfly tattoo on her chest.

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Chloe comes to me as a ladybug.

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Ironic that the stuffed animal of the ladybug is what I've got.

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But that was her nickname since birth.

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The first outfit I ever picked out for was a little ladybug onesie.

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And then while Constance was in labor there was actually a ladybug on the ceiling.

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So we always called Chloe ladybug.

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And Lily comes to me as an animal.

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So I'm sitting there at the memorial and I closed my eyes for a minute and I opened them and as soon as I opened them a butterfly flew right past my face.

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And I just knew I knew they were listening.

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And so I closed my eyes again and I swear to you in the breeze I heard Chloe say to me daddy it's time to do the work.

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And she was right.

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For the first two years after the fire I didn't even function.

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I was just catatonic.

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The first six months after the fire I don't even remember anything at all.

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And as time passed I started to remember more and more of the trauma and everything.

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And she was right.

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I started I needed to start doing the work.

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We never move on but we have to move forward.

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And I spent all those years in the darkness because I thought that was the only way I could keep them close to me.

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And what I realized that day was to keep them close to me.

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I had to step out of the darkness.

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So I wiped my tears.

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I went home that day and I enrolled in college.

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How can I help other people with their pain if I don't understand my own?

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So I'm now a junior at GCU getting a degree in behavioral science.

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But it wasn't enough.

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For years people asked me to write a book.

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And I said all right.

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Girls I'm gonna go to college for you and I'm gonna write this book for you.

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And however far you want this to go it is in your hands.

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It's all yours.

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So I published it on April Fool's Day.

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I did it on purpose because I always used to prank Constance every year on April Fool's Day.

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And man I would get her good sometimes.

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But I picked that day on purpose just as a little nod to them.

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And the response has just been absolutely unbelievable.

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I never knew it would go this far.

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It's won an international impact book award.

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I've done a few book signings that have been very very successful.

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It shot up to number two on Amazon.

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I couldn't crack number one.

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I tried so hard.

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But it's the feedback that means the most to me.

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We don't know what the person we're talking to is going through.

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And I think if we all stepped back and just listened to people, we could learn so much.

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There's so much division in this world.

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But what I've learned and what the book teaches is we can have an ability to use the things that have hurt us the most to actually do something good.

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And that's my purpose now.

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My purpose is to spread this message as far as I can.

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To start a conversation that's hard to start.

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To get people to understand that it's okay to not be okay.

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You just can't live there forever.

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So that's how it all began.

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Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

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There's so much you said in there that's so important.

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One of the things you talked about, we don't talk about grief much.

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And I think especially as men.

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If I understood you, you were kind of like at first you weren't expressing it.

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But it felt like it kind of needed to come out.

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Is that accurate?

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I held it in for years.

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And it was almost honestly like an out of sight, out of mind type of thing.

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Like if I didn't have to talk about it, maybe they're still here.

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And maybe it was just a nightmare.

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And then just one day I woke up and I'm like, I want to talk about them because they're everything to me.

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Yeah.

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So yeah, I used to be afraid of breaking down if I would talk about them.

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And now it's if I don't talk about them, I break down.

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They are right here in my heart.

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They are all around me.

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They're still guiding me.

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They're still pushing me.

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And I promised them I would never give up.

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And every day when I wake up, I look in the mirror.

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I have a little post it note next to my mirror that says I am enough.

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And I say to myself, I am enough.

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And, you know, grief.

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And another thing that people say to me a lot is I could never understand your loss.

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And I cut them off right there.

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That's not true.

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And this is a big part of the book, too.

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I'm not going to use use an example because you lost your daughter.

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But, you know, anybody out there listening, if you've lost a pet in your life, and that's the only grief you've ever experienced in your life.

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I'm great that that's the only grief you've ever had.

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But it's the same.

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It doesn't matter who or when or how or what.

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Grief is grief.

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And the tears that you shed when you lost your favorite animal are the same exact tears that I cried today for my wife and my daughters.

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There's no difference.

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Because grief is grief.

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And it hurts everybody the same.

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The anxiety and the nauseousness in your stomach and the holding back the tears.

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I do all of that, too.

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And if I can use my hurts to help you with your hurts and to teach you that you have the power to use your hurts to help somebody with their hurts, that is how we change the world.

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And that's my purpose.

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I want to change the world.

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Yeah.

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Well, you're doing it.

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And I appreciate that.

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You know, we do have this tendency to want to compare grief.

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Sometimes we think ours is worse.

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Sometimes you think someone else is worse.

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And I love what you say.

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Because I have people that come to me that have lost pets.

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And they're almost ashamed because they're like, well, it was just a cat or it was just a dog.

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And I'm like, no, it's the same thing.

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And I made a mistake one time.

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I was actually doing, I was on an interview and I was talking to someone.

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I said, you know, losing a child, like the worst thing ever.

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And the woman I was was interviewing me said, I've lost a child and I've lost my husband.

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I can tell you that, you know, you can't say losing a child is worse.

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But when when we lose, we lose someone so close to us, someone that lives with us, our child, our spouse, we have to find something to hold on to.

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And I think I heard you say it was for you, it was your son.

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Because for me, at first, when I lost my dad, I did not want to be here.

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So I defined something else to live for.

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Was that your experience also?

00:20:29.569 --> 00:20:30.369
Oh, absolutely.

00:20:34.299 --> 00:20:38.779
For the first several months, I was in a lot of denial.

00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:42.779
I truly believe they were on vacation.

00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:44.420
I don't know where that came.

00:20:44.539 --> 00:20:45.460
I don't know where that came from.

00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.500
I have no idea, but I was absolutely convinced they were on vacation.

00:20:50.059 --> 00:20:51.440
And our home was still there.

00:20:51.980 --> 00:20:55.319
And all I had to do is drive home and they'd be there waiting for me.

00:20:55.659 --> 00:21:06.869
And I very rarely go to Gatlinburg just because of the trauma that I still have from that night.

00:21:07.309 --> 00:21:15.440
But one day I drove to where my house was, hoping it would still be there.

00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:24.889
And it wasn't.

00:21:27.829 --> 00:21:46.740
Well, that's the thing about grief is it does take time, you know, and I love you talk about a million stages of grief.

00:21:47.639 --> 00:21:51.240
This thing about five stages of grief, I don't even have to ask how you feel about that.

00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:52.220
I think it's pretty clear.

00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:54.779
There aren't five stages of grief.

00:21:55.819 --> 00:22:01.779
And a lot of times people want to rush the process and their friends want them to rush the process.

00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:03.839
So like, you should be moving on.

00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:05.139
You should be at this place.

00:22:05.259 --> 00:22:06.180
You should be at that place.

00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:08.519
And I appreciate you telling this art.

00:22:08.740 --> 00:22:12.779
It took you years to integrate this.

00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:16.859
And no, this can't be true.

00:22:17.420 --> 00:22:21.639
You know, I will wake up in the morning and think, you know, this is real.

00:22:22.139 --> 00:22:23.420
It's just really my life.

00:22:27.730 --> 00:22:35.750
The original five stages of grief were designed for people that were terminally ill.

00:22:37.190 --> 00:22:41.109
If you know you're dying, what stages do you go through?

00:22:41.690 --> 00:22:44.230
And when you look at it that way, it makes complete sense.

00:22:44.569 --> 00:22:47.609
The first thing I would think is, nope, this is not going to happen to me.

00:22:48.009 --> 00:22:51.069
And then when you realize it's going to happen to me, you get angry about it.

00:22:51.509 --> 00:22:54.490
And then you're like, all right, God, there's got to be a way we can get through this.

00:22:54.509 --> 00:22:55.589
Let's make a deal somehow.

00:22:55.970 --> 00:22:58.389
And then you get through the depression part.

00:22:58.409 --> 00:23:02.149
And then you accept that there's nothing that can be done.

00:23:02.509 --> 00:23:09.990
That is an excellent model for somebody that is experiencing the final stages of their life.

00:23:10.509 --> 00:23:14.869
But it is completely irrelevant to when you lose someone.

00:23:16.129 --> 00:23:19.909
And I'm not trying to change the science.

00:23:20.629 --> 00:23:26.129
I'm just trying to get people to look at it differently.

00:23:29.089 --> 00:23:31.349
There are not five stages of grief.

00:23:31.549 --> 00:23:31.990
There's a million.

00:23:32.329 --> 00:23:33.769
And they are all intertwined.

00:23:34.450 --> 00:23:39.710
And they are all in different parts of our head and our soul and our hearts.

00:23:40.349 --> 00:23:42.589
And one day this side could pull on you.

00:23:42.649 --> 00:23:44.889
And one day this side could pull on you.

00:23:45.409 --> 00:23:48.889
And there's got to be something out there that can help make sense of it.

00:23:49.789 --> 00:24:00.909
And that's what this book does is is I share some really raw feelings that that I experienced.

00:24:01.049 --> 00:24:06.569
And then I take everything I've learned in college and through my own therapy and through my own experience.

00:24:06.609 --> 00:24:09.970
And I teach you why you feel those things.

00:24:10.430 --> 00:24:14.369
And then I teach you the skills to get through those things.

00:24:14.909 --> 00:24:15.009
Yeah.

00:24:15.769 --> 00:24:21.589
And that that it's a weird little phrase I came up with.

00:24:49.990 --> 00:24:56.789
But what I've wanted from every person that's read this book is to read one sentence and go, that's how I felt.

00:24:57.930 --> 00:25:02.170
Nobody has ever validated that from me before until right now.

00:25:02.470 --> 00:25:04.150
Now I know I'm crazy.

00:25:05.250 --> 00:25:05.350
Yes.

00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:09.140
Yeah.

00:25:09.860 --> 00:25:12.259
I think that is so so important.

00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:15.819
And I love that you that you are vulnerable and that you are raw.

00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:24.120
I remember when my daughter passed I was listening to a podcast and I heard a woman say I was her daughter passed away.

00:25:24.339 --> 00:25:30.319
And she said she was standing on the corner getting ready to step up in the street and she saw a bus come by and she wanted to step in front of the bus.

00:25:31.100 --> 00:25:33.680
And that was the first person I had heard express something like that.

00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:38.980
And just it just felt so liberating to me because I'm like, I'm not the only one that feels this way.

00:25:43.299 --> 00:25:47.259
And it's, you know, there's endless scenarios.

00:25:55.150 --> 00:25:58.970
I can't tell you how many people have told me it's time to move on.

00:26:00.430 --> 00:26:13.230
I had one person tell me once that I was preventing them from being in heaven because I refuse to let them go.

00:26:13.850 --> 00:26:14.850
Yes, I've heard that.

00:26:20.120 --> 00:26:24.779
And I believe people mean well, but I think a lot of times people just don't know what to say.

00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:29.579
And when they don't know what to say, they say the wrong things.

00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:32.180
Yeah, yeah.

00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:46.680
It's funny you mentioned that because I I won't out anybody but somebody who's really well respected in terms of like afterlife stuff and just recently put out a video talking about when children pass away.

00:26:47.700 --> 00:26:55.319
And one of the things he repeated in this video is that we can hold them back from their progression if we hold on to them too much.

00:26:55.819 --> 00:27:02.140
And that's just to me, it just bothers me in so many different ways, right?

00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:05.299
I mean, like we first of all, we couldn't hold them.

00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:06.279
We couldn't hold them here.

00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:08.120
So why would that be true?

00:27:08.120 --> 00:27:15.440
And secondly, it just puts guilt on top of you, you know, who's who does want to let their children go, especially when they're minors.

00:27:17.900 --> 00:27:20.059
And I can prove that he's wrong.

00:27:21.700 --> 00:27:24.980
I told you earlier that they come to me in different forms.

00:27:25.259 --> 00:27:25.460
Right.

00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:27.819
Lily comes to me as an owl.

00:27:28.620 --> 00:27:31.700
And she she's the strongest sign that I get.

00:27:31.700 --> 00:27:39.440
And it was about maybe five years ago.

00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:46.019
I was outside on the porch.

00:27:47.500 --> 00:27:50.259
And I look up and there's an owl staring at me.

00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:54.360
And it stared at me for 15 minutes.

00:27:55.940 --> 00:27:57.559
And I know that's not my daughter.

00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:00.460
But that's my daughter.

00:28:01.339 --> 00:28:01.440
Yeah.

00:28:02.019 --> 00:28:02.200
Yeah.

00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:04.740
I named her Glory.

00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:08.140
She has a boyfriend that I named Frank because he's kind of dumb.

00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:09.519
He doesn't know how to land right.

00:28:12.019 --> 00:28:20.259
But they've had four years of babies every spring that will land in my yard at night and eat the grubs out of the ground.

00:28:20.259 --> 00:28:21.640
Oh, wow.

00:28:30.890 --> 00:28:40.110
What I what I didn't realize and what I finally have come to in the last year or so is I've believed all along that those signs were them.

00:28:40.789 --> 00:28:52.759
They were God using them to remind me that he's still here.

00:28:55.360 --> 00:28:57.600
And my my battle with God has been a long one.

00:28:57.880 --> 00:28:58.779
I've cursed him.

00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:01.640
I'm lost my faith for many years.

00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:04.880
I haven't stepped foot in a church since the memorial service.

00:29:08.490 --> 00:29:11.450
But I was so angry at him for so long.

00:29:13.170 --> 00:29:14.990
Because he knew this was going to happen.

00:29:17.809 --> 00:29:19.870
He knew when they were born, this was going to happen.

00:29:21.170 --> 00:29:22.250
And that's not fair.

00:29:33.299 --> 00:29:41.589
But I had to let him back in my life, just to have some stability.

00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:51.829
And how are you with language on this podcast?

00:29:52.650 --> 00:29:54.009
Oh, feel free.

00:29:54.190 --> 00:29:54.610
Go ahead.

00:29:55.269 --> 00:29:56.430
Do you want me to be blunt?

00:29:56.769 --> 00:29:57.329
Yeah, please.

00:29:58.110 --> 00:29:58.670
Okay.

00:30:00.069 --> 00:30:06.130
I asked God one day, why he didn't let me save my wife.

00:30:07.210 --> 00:30:10.329
And he said, you did save her.

00:30:12.730 --> 00:30:14.110
She had a lot of mental health issues.

00:30:14.110 --> 00:30:15.089
She struggled.

00:30:15.769 --> 00:30:18.430
She had been through some horrible things when she was a child.

00:30:20.009 --> 00:30:22.970
And it affected her daily life every day.

00:30:23.730 --> 00:30:31.269
And he said you did save her because you held her hand every day until it was time for me to take a hold of it.

00:30:31.350 --> 00:30:31.950
Oh, wow.

00:30:33.410 --> 00:30:34.450
And I said, fuck you.

00:30:35.350 --> 00:30:35.450
Yeah.

00:30:36.670 --> 00:30:38.509
Why didn't you let me save my girls?

00:30:40.069 --> 00:30:42.930
And he said your wife's biggest fear was being alone.

00:30:43.850 --> 00:30:45.970
So now she never has to be alone again.

00:30:47.089 --> 00:30:48.350
And I said, fuck you again.

00:30:48.829 --> 00:30:51.289
And I completely turned my back on God for years.

00:30:51.289 --> 00:30:51.870
Hmm.

00:30:53.110 --> 00:30:53.589
Yeah.

00:30:59.650 --> 00:31:09.890
And then when I realized that I was getting all of these signs all the time, and it was actually him trying to get through to me saying, I'm still here for you.

00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:20.839
And it came to me as as one sentence, there's a purpose for your pain.

00:31:22.360 --> 00:31:26.100
You have to do the work to fulfill that purpose.

00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:30.900
And I believe that's true for all of us.

00:31:32.180 --> 00:31:33.759
We all have hurts.

00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.240
We've all been through things that have changed who we are forever.

00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:39.220
There's a purpose for it.

00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:46.160
We were not born on this earth to suffer our entire lives and then die in misery.

00:31:47.620 --> 00:32:03.500
We have to take the things that we've been through and do something good about it and leave our leave our mark and do our best to leave this world better than it was when we were here.

00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:12.720
And this is just my little way of doing it.

00:32:13.360 --> 00:32:13.460
Yeah.

00:32:14.100 --> 00:32:18.259
So where are you on your faith journey now?

00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:25.720
Probably as far as I'm going to get.

00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:32.220
I've never reached that pillar of acceptance.

00:32:33.500 --> 00:32:35.000
I don't think I'm ever going to.

00:32:39.299 --> 00:32:42.220
And that's off topic.

00:32:42.500 --> 00:32:51.839
That's part of the reason why I've never gone to a church because I have believed all along if I step foot in a church, that means I have to accept what God took.

00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:55.500
And I can't do it.

00:32:56.920 --> 00:33:03.839
And I know God didn't take them, but in our broken minds, he did.

00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:14.170
Because God could have told us, hey, there's a fire coming.

00:33:15.170 --> 00:33:15.670
Get out.

00:33:16.750 --> 00:33:17.809
We had no warning.

00:33:18.029 --> 00:33:19.089
We had no evacuation.

00:33:19.410 --> 00:33:20.230
We had no alerts.

00:33:20.870 --> 00:33:24.990
Nobody knew what was happening until it was too late.

00:33:25.769 --> 00:33:28.650
And thousands of people had to flee for their lives.

00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:36.259
Why didn't you tell me, God?

00:33:37.819 --> 00:33:37.960
Why?

00:33:43.450 --> 00:33:52.890
So I believe and I know he's in here and I know on my hard days he's pushing me forward.

00:33:53.850 --> 00:33:57.289
And I know that he had a part in us talking today.

00:34:03.730 --> 00:34:07.809
So I'd say my faith has grown a lot since day one.

00:34:12.059 --> 00:34:13.639
But I'm not a Bible thumper.

00:34:17.319 --> 00:34:21.719
I believe being a Christian is doing the right thing when nobody's looking.

00:34:22.799 --> 00:34:24.039
And it's that simple.

00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:26.920
And that's how I live my life.

00:34:28.460 --> 00:34:30.380
And I think God's okay with it.

00:34:30.799 --> 00:34:31.579
Yeah, yeah.

00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:40.400
Well, the thing that's interesting to me is we have this idea, or sometimes a religion will place in our head, you should never be angry with God.

00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:44.259
I talked to a young man not very long ago.

00:34:44.420 --> 00:34:51.900
His wife had their son and then passed away a couple days later from complications from childbirth.

00:34:52.659 --> 00:34:55.239
And this guy's deeply devout Mormon.

00:34:56.579 --> 00:34:59.659
And he had those tough conversations with God.

00:35:00.579 --> 00:35:01.019
Why?

00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:05.360
And it's interesting, even as a Christian, we read our Bibles and you read the book of Job.

00:35:06.319 --> 00:35:09.000
And God never really gives Job an answer.

00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:14.219
He takes his wife, he takes his kids, he takes his land, he takes everything else.

00:35:15.980 --> 00:35:19.360
I don't think we're going to have those answers while we're here.

00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:25.219
So for me, you know, people ask me about my faith, because I was raised as a Christian.

00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:29.739
And I'm like, my faith is actually stronger than ever.

00:35:29.898 --> 00:35:35.079
But I don't believe in like, bad things don't happen, because obviously they do.

00:35:35.619 --> 00:35:37.958
Well, my thing, it's like, I just don't understand why.

00:35:38.358 --> 00:35:40.679
I will, I don't understand why.

00:35:40.878 --> 00:35:50.699
But I believe there's a reason kind of like, terrible thing that most of us can't imagine anything worse.

00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.358
And you said, I'm going to turn this into something with purpose.

00:35:54.579 --> 00:36:01.599
And I'm looking at your certificates and your things behind you, you're in college, and you're teaching and you're reaching people.

00:36:01.779 --> 00:36:06.319
So you've taken this and you've transformed it into something that's helping a lot of people.

00:36:08.989 --> 00:36:10.429
I want to make them proud.

00:36:11.069 --> 00:36:13.029
Yeah, yeah.

00:36:13.969 --> 00:36:21.369
And I know, I know they're smiling down.

00:36:21.809 --> 00:36:24.649
I know they're holding me.

00:36:25.089 --> 00:36:30.059
I know they're guiding me every step of the way.

00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:33.839
And that actually brings me to peace.

00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:43.219
And I've said this for a long time, too.

00:36:43.659 --> 00:36:50.539
I believe that I'm actually closer to them now than I ever was when they were on this earth.

00:36:52.299 --> 00:36:55.259
Yeah, because all I got to do is close my eyes and I see them.

00:36:55.919 --> 00:36:58.559
All I got to do is say, Hey, Chloe, are you there?

00:36:58.980 --> 00:36:59.679
And she's here.

00:37:06.609 --> 00:37:11.509
That eternal love and that maternal and paternal love never goes away.

00:37:13.069 --> 00:37:19.419
And, you know, there's there's parts that I've still never processed.

00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:21.000
I've never gone through.

00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:25.659
I'm never gonna see a prom or a wedding day.

00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:30.619
Yeah, I can't go there yet.

00:37:32.359 --> 00:37:37.569
But I wonder what they would look like now.

00:37:38.169 --> 00:37:44.819
And I wonder what their personalities would be like.

00:37:45.099 --> 00:37:49.339
And I stop myself because I'm never gonna know.

00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:54.159
And they're just forever 12 and nine.

00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:59.299
And I have to be okay with that.

00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:09.919
Yeah, I've kind of come I've kind of come to a place where I'm okay with that.

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:13.879
Because the 12 years and the nine years that we had were phenomenal.

00:38:15.619 --> 00:38:16.859
Yeah, so many memories.

00:38:17.759 --> 00:38:30.929
And, you know, Chloe woke up one day and told me that she's going to move to England because she wants to marry the head singer of One Direction.

00:38:33.069 --> 00:38:38.989
And I tried to explain to her, well, you're I think she was 10 when she talked about this.

00:38:39.129 --> 00:38:41.629
I'm like, you're kind of 10 years old, he's kind of grown up.

00:38:41.809 --> 00:38:44.429
She's like, I don't want to move here.

00:38:47.149 --> 00:38:50.209
Those are the moments that I hold closest.

00:38:50.669 --> 00:39:03.609
And I can't make up scenarios that might have happened if they were still here, I can only hold on to the memories that I have from when they were still here.

00:39:04.189 --> 00:39:10.009
And it's those moments that used to make me cry, but now they make me smile.

00:39:10.709 --> 00:39:14.609
Yeah, I could I can tell that you've gotten to that point.

00:39:14.889 --> 00:39:21.529
Well, I asked you the question at the very beginning, tell me about your wife and your daughters and your face as you were telling and your expressions.

00:39:22.369 --> 00:39:24.669
I could they were like you said, they're right there with you.

00:39:25.169 --> 00:39:30.730
And the way that you describe them, you know, they remind me of my my two daughters, Shayna was our little spit fire.

00:39:30.929 --> 00:39:31.669
She was the youngest.

00:39:32.250 --> 00:39:36.429
And she was the one with the hand on the hip and, you know, always pushing the limits.

00:39:36.709 --> 00:39:41.209
And so I could I could just relate, you know, right there to your daughters.

00:39:42.469 --> 00:39:44.869
And that's the flip that I had to make.

00:39:45.069 --> 00:39:46.709
You know, I had Shayna for 15 years.

00:39:47.429 --> 00:39:52.929
And I could spend the rest of my life, you know, saying I don't have her now she'd be 25.

00:39:53.389 --> 00:39:55.069
You know, what would she be doing?

00:39:55.269 --> 00:39:57.369
I have no idea what she'd be doing.

00:39:57.929 --> 00:40:02.750
But I do know I did have those 15 years with her and I still and I will always have those memories.

00:40:03.769 --> 00:40:08.189
And and she even said when she was about 10, I think, like, I don't want to grow up.

00:40:08.549 --> 00:40:10.029
She was like Peter Pan.

00:40:10.169 --> 00:40:11.489
She's like, I don't want to be an adult.

00:40:11.669 --> 00:40:15.889
She didn't want to go through all the issues like, and I'm what I think that was her plan.

00:40:16.169 --> 00:40:18.109
Her plan was to only be here for 15 years.

00:40:18.589 --> 00:40:20.569
She just loved being a kid.

00:40:21.469 --> 00:40:25.209
And so that's that's what I have to, you know, accept.

00:40:26.149 --> 00:40:29.409
And there, it takes a while to get to that point, you know, right?

00:40:30.069 --> 00:40:37.949
So but I can tell now you're like, I have those memories, and you do you still love the love never goes away, as you said.

00:40:39.089 --> 00:40:44.969
And we will always have and I have another daughter who's here, and I don't see her every day.

00:40:45.129 --> 00:40:49.169
I don't talk to her every day, but I talk to Shana every single day.

00:40:52.299 --> 00:40:53.159
Anytime you want to.

00:40:54.779 --> 00:40:56.859
And there's beauty in that.

00:40:58.079 --> 00:40:58.439
There is.

00:40:59.779 --> 00:41:00.319
There is.

00:41:00.879 --> 00:41:05.739
So I you know, your book, you've kind of described it already.

00:41:06.179 --> 00:41:14.839
It's a way of like you express what you've gone through, but also it sounds like you help people to move forward through their lives.

00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:18.539
So what what type of things do you recommend for people to do?

00:41:21.069 --> 00:41:23.569
It's it's unique to every situation.

00:41:23.689 --> 00:41:30.049
There's there's a lot of things out there that offer help.

00:41:30.789 --> 00:41:33.269
It don't really help.

00:41:33.629 --> 00:41:42.629
Like, I've never been into like the grief support groups where you meet in a circle every week and talk about your pain.

00:41:42.629 --> 00:41:51.029
I've never never seemed interested in that because I didn't want to sit there and cry the whole time and listen to everybody else's sadness.

00:41:52.889 --> 00:42:00.549
So it's it's unique to the individual, but there are countless things you can do.

00:42:04.269 --> 00:42:13.250
You know, you can draw a painting, you can journaling is it is helpful.

00:42:14.829 --> 00:42:24.699
Go on a vacation where your lost loved one always wanted to go and do it with him.

00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:27.099
Yeah, talk more about that.

00:42:33.399 --> 00:42:40.899
There's places that I still can't go to today because I had so many memories of them there.

00:42:42.459 --> 00:42:48.339
Our big thing every year was amusement parks on our anniversary, we'd go to a different amusement park and ride coasters all day together.

00:42:49.059 --> 00:42:53.059
And the last trip that we made was in August of 16.

00:42:53.059 --> 00:42:55.379
We went to Kings Island in Cincinnati.

00:42:56.579 --> 00:43:00.599
And to this day, I can still not go to Kings Island.

00:43:03.939 --> 00:43:05.679
I'm going to go to Kings Island.

00:43:07.099 --> 00:43:12.959
And I'm going to stand in the places where I have pictures of us together.

00:43:14.500 --> 00:43:16.519
And I'm going to take new pictures.

00:43:18.279 --> 00:43:27.469
And I'm going to take a little owl, ladybug and a butterfly and I'm going to bury it in the dirt somewhere.

00:43:28.649 --> 00:43:34.259
And they'll always be there.

00:43:35.819 --> 00:43:39.699
Yeah, I wow, that's so first of all, I live like 20 minutes from Kings Island.

00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:42.539
But that's so powerful.

00:43:42.739 --> 00:43:51.559
I just got goosebumps as you were saying that because like my daughter, Shayna, I took her to White Castle and she was like five years old.

00:43:51.699 --> 00:43:53.179
My wife doesn't like White Castle.

00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:56.159
So I took the two girls there and I still have this memory.

00:43:56.319 --> 00:43:58.399
They're like it's magical at that time.

00:43:58.519 --> 00:43:59.980
It's this big White Castle.

00:44:00.839 --> 00:44:04.159
And we got the hamburger and she goes, they're just my size and they're made for me.

00:44:04.259 --> 00:44:04.980
She's five, right?

00:44:05.459 --> 00:44:06.519
She ate like five of them.

00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:07.619
So she was miserable.

00:44:08.439 --> 00:44:10.799
But the White Castle is right around the corner from where I live.

00:44:11.459 --> 00:44:19.039
And after she passed, every time I went back past the White Castle, I would start crying and I found myself avoiding going past the White Castle.

00:44:20.279 --> 00:44:27.319
And then it took a while, but then eventually now I go to the White Castle and I'm like, this is where we had that special memory.

00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:29.239
This is where we had that moment, you know.

00:44:29.899 --> 00:44:33.299
So it's I changed it or it changed for me.

00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:43.099
And you're thinking about going to Kings Island, because I tell people if you try to avoid your triggers, I have one person who or son died in their neighborhood.

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.480
And sometimes people say, well, I'm going to move out of the neighborhood because I can't stand the memories.

00:44:48.339 --> 00:44:53.399
And I'm like, if you could just write it out, I think you can get through that and then it becomes a special place.

00:44:54.279 --> 00:44:58.379
So you leaning into that you go into something that's uncomfortable for you.

00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:00.519
I think it'll transform that for you.

00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:08.099
Yeah, I was a roller coaster mechanic for Dollywood fires.

00:45:09.419 --> 00:45:14.219
And five days before the fire was Chloe's birthday.

00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:18.639
And of course, they wanted to ride rides on my day off.

00:45:18.799 --> 00:45:23.119
I'm like, all right, let's go ride rides, because, you know, I love being at work on my day off.

00:45:24.939 --> 00:45:28.539
So it was just me and the kids and we're spending the day riding rides.

00:45:28.939 --> 00:45:31.759
And we walked by their zipline.

00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:34.819
And she was like, Daddy, we have never ziplined.

00:45:35.179 --> 00:45:36.459
He ziplined from my birthday.

00:45:37.879 --> 00:45:40.459
And we walked up to the counter and they were closed.

00:45:40.859 --> 00:45:44.439
So I said, All right, the next time we come to Dollywood, I promise he will zipline together.

00:45:45.099 --> 00:45:47.359
And then five days later, they were all gone.

00:45:52.509 --> 00:45:55.869
So I woke up one day in 2020, out of the completely random.

00:45:57.649 --> 00:46:04.909
And I said, If I become a zipline guide, somewhere, they can still fly with me.

00:46:05.089 --> 00:46:05.509
Wow.

00:46:06.189 --> 00:46:12.730
So I've been a zipline guide ever since at a place called legacy mountain ziplines.

00:46:12.750 --> 00:46:15.109
If anybody comes to Pigeon Forge, hit us up.

00:46:15.109 --> 00:46:16.149
We're number one in the country.

00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:21.319
And they fly with me every day.

00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:22.259
Yeah.

00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:24.959
And I'm 500 feet in the air.

00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:34.839
And I can feel Chloe with her arms wrapped around me and her little cheeks flopping in the wind and her eyes rolling in the back of her head because she's having so much fun.

00:46:35.799 --> 00:46:53.909
And we can find things to do in our lives that can make us feel closer to them.

00:46:54.889 --> 00:46:58.629
And that's really important for people to do too.

00:46:59.029 --> 00:46:59.129
Yeah.

00:47:02.539 --> 00:47:07.039
Our loved ones don't want us to cry.

00:47:08.299 --> 00:47:10.459
They don't want us to live in fear.

00:47:11.719 --> 00:47:14.639
They don't want us to be sad and miserable.

00:47:16.059 --> 00:47:20.579
They want us to live and they want us to laugh and they want us to love.

00:47:22.759 --> 00:47:28.619
And it took a long time.

00:47:28.739 --> 00:47:31.299
And I'm sure it did for you too, to get to that place.

00:47:33.500 --> 00:47:43.659
But even if you've lost, it's okay to smile for a long time.

00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:48.719
And if my son wanted to go ride go carts, I'm like, okay, let's go ride go carts.

00:47:48.919 --> 00:47:51.739
But I was stoic.

00:47:52.099 --> 00:47:58.299
Like I had no facial expression because I was national news when the fires happened.

00:47:58.599 --> 00:48:00.279
So everybody knew who I was.

00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:05.079
And God forbid, I'm at a go cart track with my son smiling.

00:48:05.799 --> 00:48:05.899
Yeah.

00:48:06.219 --> 00:48:12.519
Oh my gosh, there's the man who lost his family and he's smiled, excuse me, smiling and having fun.

00:48:12.839 --> 00:48:14.899
And no, I'm not.

00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:16.639
Yeah.

00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:26.679
But through time, like time heals some of the wounds, not all of them, but through time, I've learned.

00:48:28.319 --> 00:48:29.239
They want me to laugh.

00:48:29.439 --> 00:48:30.159
They want me to be happy.

00:48:30.319 --> 00:48:31.419
They want me to do fun things.

00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:40.239
They want me to do scary things and adventurous things because they're still here doing those things with me.

00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:43.079
I think that's so important.

00:48:43.419 --> 00:48:45.779
I was talking to someone earlier today about survivor's guilt.

00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:48.799
And it's just such a, it's such a weird thing that we have.

00:48:48.839 --> 00:48:50.980
Like, you know, they're not here.

00:48:51.079 --> 00:48:51.980
They can't enjoy this.

00:48:52.219 --> 00:48:53.279
I shouldn't enjoy it.

00:48:54.579 --> 00:48:56.639
And I remember what my daughter passed away.

00:48:56.739 --> 00:49:03.719
My, my other daughter, she had a reading with a medium and I think, well, she knew cause she was talking to Shane in the medium.

00:49:03.919 --> 00:49:14.299
She said, your sister wants you to know that all the moments you're going to go through in your life, when you graduate, when you get married, when you have kids, she's going to be there with you, experiencing them with you.

00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:21.739
And I, you know, again, love what you're saying is like, okay, I'm going to take them with me, go on vacation and take them with you.

00:49:22.179 --> 00:49:25.519
I was talking to somebody, said, well, I'm going to go on vacation without them.

00:49:25.579 --> 00:49:27.500
I'm like, no, take them with you.

00:49:28.839 --> 00:49:30.419
They, they can be there with you.

00:49:30.439 --> 00:49:31.899
So it's not like it's too late.

00:49:32.059 --> 00:49:34.839
You know, that place you wanted to go, go there.

00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:37.619
The place that you did go, you know, go there.

00:49:37.619 --> 00:49:42.779
I, it was interesting cause this was Shane's 10 year anniversary this year.

00:49:43.439 --> 00:49:50.119
And I ended up being back in the condo that we were in the very exact same condo, the, the last vacation we were on together.

00:49:50.439 --> 00:49:53.279
And I didn't even realize that the time that was scheduled for the same time.

00:49:53.339 --> 00:50:05.679
And I was sitting there and I'm like, I just had the memory of being there with her and not knowing it's going to be our last vacation together, but you know, I had the pictures, I had the memories and I'm like, I will always have those pictures and those memories.

00:50:06.579 --> 00:50:11.119
So that could have been a bad thing, but it actually was, it was a nice thing for me.

00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:14.919
And there's nothing wrong with that.

00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:16.079
Yeah.

00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:23.799
And I think, you know, it's really important, you know, what you said also, I mean, it does take some time, but people want to put a timeframe on things.

00:50:24.199 --> 00:50:35.759
I, really good friend, one of my best friends just passed away suddenly in April and my wife and I have a Derby party, Kentucky Derby party every May, which is the first weekend in May.

00:50:36.459 --> 00:50:41.919
And so we're having a Derby party and his, his wife, you know, she's like, well, should I come or should I not come?

00:50:42.059 --> 00:50:43.459
We're like, yeah, you should come.

00:50:43.539 --> 00:50:44.619
We'd all be together anyway.

00:50:44.879 --> 00:50:45.679
It's a group of friends.

00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:50.679
We always get together and she came and we had some good times.

00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:51.579
We had some tears.

00:50:51.839 --> 00:50:53.039
We had a tribute to him.

00:50:53.279 --> 00:50:57.259
You know, we, we, we went through all the emotions together, just like we would anyway.

00:50:58.059 --> 00:51:06.459
And then someone saw like on Facebook and said, I saw you went to the party and look like you were having a great time, you know, trying to make her feel guilty.

00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:15.539
And it's like, no, you, you need to be out and, and be, you know, with your friends and, you know, sometimes we're going to laugh.

00:51:15.699 --> 00:51:16.699
Sometimes we're going to smile.

00:51:16.839 --> 00:51:20.759
It doesn't mean that we've forgotten our love when they never are off of our minds.

00:51:23.659 --> 00:51:27.879
People, people are afraid of things they don't understand.

00:51:29.399 --> 00:51:35.879
And, and, you know, there is so much division in this world.

00:51:38.329 --> 00:51:58.239
And that's why I put such an emphasis in the book about grief being a uniter, because everybody has to have somebody, everybody.

00:51:59.879 --> 00:52:10.779
And during the dark, the darkest parts of grief, the isolation that you'd feel is crippling.

00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:18.339
And then you talk about, you know, a little bit of the survivor's guilt.

00:52:19.299 --> 00:52:26.179
It's weird how you've gone through this tragedy, but then everybody around you moves on.

00:52:28.899 --> 00:52:32.199
And I compare it to a newspaper.

00:52:35.759 --> 00:52:43.359
Every morning I get up, I go on my porch, I pick up my newspaper and I open up the headline and the headline says, Gallimberg wildfire.

00:52:44.500 --> 00:52:47.019
And it's been the same headline for nine years.

00:52:48.599 --> 00:52:54.739
And nobody else's newspaper looks like that.

00:52:54.939 --> 00:53:05.699
But life goes on, unless you're the person that it affected.

00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:19.399
And I would get, I would get not really angry, but I would get frustrated because I would believe that, oh my God, the whole world's forgotten them.

00:53:22.899 --> 00:53:24.959
And now, why?

00:53:25.859 --> 00:53:27.980
And then I'll just get a random message.

00:53:28.119 --> 00:53:30.119
I got a message on TikTok the other day.

00:53:32.359 --> 00:53:39.679
I have no idea who this person was, but they just, I want you to know, I have prayed for you for years.

00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:41.699
I've never forgotten your girls.

00:53:42.599 --> 00:53:44.799
I just got your book and it's amazing.

00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:46.239
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

00:53:46.519 --> 00:53:53.019
And just that, that little comment right there reminded me, they're never forgotten.

00:53:54.119 --> 00:53:56.639
Your daughter's never forgotten.

00:53:59.069 --> 00:53:59.169
Yeah.

00:54:01.629 --> 00:54:03.969
That is one of the fears that we have.

00:54:04.569 --> 00:54:10.909
And one of the things I love about doing what I do is I think we all kind of have that fear that they're going to be forgotten.

00:54:11.269 --> 00:54:13.789
It's, it's, it's one of those human things, I guess.

00:54:14.489 --> 00:54:15.889
And I get to talk to people.

00:54:16.269 --> 00:54:19.250
I was talking to a woman the other day, her, her brother passed away.

00:54:19.250 --> 00:54:20.089
He was 15.

00:54:20.589 --> 00:54:23.669
This was like 20 years ago, you know, sophomore in high school.

00:54:23.909 --> 00:54:32.609
She was a freshman in college and she's since started a jewelry company, a Memorial jewelry company, a jewelry company on his behalf.

00:54:32.609 --> 00:54:34.109
And it's named after her brother.

00:54:34.829 --> 00:54:42.449
And I said, when he passed away 20 years ago as a junior in high school, did you ever believe, you know, could you believe that he was going to have this kind of impact?

00:54:42.449 --> 00:54:44.689
And now there's this company named after him and everything.

00:54:45.009 --> 00:54:46.969
And she goes, yeah, I'm sure he's just laughing.

00:54:46.969 --> 00:54:49.169
And like, I'm still a big part of your life, right?

00:54:49.769 --> 00:54:54.589
So we, we have this fear that they're going to fade away, but it's actually quite the opposite.

00:54:55.609 --> 00:54:58.589
And my daughter, again, it's been 10 years and she was 15 when she passed.

00:54:58.769 --> 00:55:02.769
And I thought, well, her friends, they were, they were 15, you know, it's been 10 years.

00:55:03.089 --> 00:55:04.750
They're not going to really think about Shane.

00:55:04.909 --> 00:55:06.369
I remember Shane and they all do.

00:55:06.369 --> 00:55:08.049
They all talk about her all the time.

00:55:08.829 --> 00:55:12.589
So your girls, your wife, they're still having an impact.

00:55:13.529 --> 00:55:16.769
Part of it is through you, through the work that you're doing.

00:55:17.889 --> 00:55:23.569
And that's, that's the thing you've taken that, like, I love what you said about like, they're, they're with you, they're guiding you.

00:55:24.769 --> 00:55:26.230
I look at like, we're a team.

00:55:26.230 --> 00:55:32.230
I just happen to be the team member that's, that's in the game right now, but they're still, they're still there.

00:55:32.349 --> 00:55:33.189
They're still guiding us.

00:55:33.289 --> 00:55:39.089
They're still, they're still arranging things for us, you know, and all we have to do is just reach out to them.

00:55:39.769 --> 00:55:40.250
Yeah.

00:55:42.029 --> 00:55:49.589
And the beauty of the hurt is that we can reach out to them anytime you want to.

00:55:49.589 --> 00:55:49.969
Yeah.

00:55:50.829 --> 00:55:51.069
Yeah.

00:55:52.129 --> 00:56:03.889
So there is something, you know, we, we lose that physical connection, which we all want because we're physical beings, but we, if we allow it to happen, and again, there's things we're talking about.

00:56:04.009 --> 00:56:12.389
I'm going to remind people, you know, for you, it's been, it's been nine years and it sounds like it took you several years to integrate this experience.

00:56:13.069 --> 00:56:14.489
It takes us a while to get there.

00:56:14.989 --> 00:56:17.469
People think I should be there by now, right?

00:56:17.549 --> 00:56:18.250
It's been a year.

00:56:18.369 --> 00:56:19.109
It's been two years.

00:56:19.429 --> 00:56:24.049
I just kind of smile and say, no, you, you're still really early.

00:56:24.250 --> 00:56:28.329
It's, it's, it's a years long process, but we can get there.

00:56:30.049 --> 00:56:31.529
Yeah, there is no timetable.

00:56:31.769 --> 00:56:40.669
And that's, that's where I think the illusion of the five stages of grief kind of confuses people because they think it's just this linear process.

00:56:40.709 --> 00:56:43.509
All right, I'm going to go through A, B, C, D, and E.

00:56:43.529 --> 00:56:44.569
And then I'm going to be fine.

00:56:44.789 --> 00:56:45.129
Right.

00:56:45.509 --> 00:56:47.309
And that's, that's not how it works.

00:56:48.029 --> 00:56:54.159
And, and I don't care how long it takes you.

00:56:55.199 --> 00:57:01.859
There's still things I'm going to grieve the rest of my life that I know I'm never going to be able to process and never be able to understand.

00:57:02.759 --> 00:57:05.279
I've never processed losing our home.

00:57:05.279 --> 00:57:08.159
I've never processed the pets that we lost that night.

00:57:08.579 --> 00:57:11.159
I can never get past just losing them.

00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:22.219
And, and I may spend the rest of my life never fully completely realizing that we lost every possession we had.

00:57:24.379 --> 00:57:25.539
Thank God for Facebook.

00:57:25.839 --> 00:57:29.500
The only pictures I have were my Facebook pictures.

00:57:31.579 --> 00:57:32.980
Everything else is gone.

00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:40.599
Yeah, I appreciate it.

00:57:40.599 --> 00:57:46.839
Again, I appreciate your honesty because you know, sometimes people look at us and think, okay, well, you've got it all together.

00:57:47.359 --> 00:57:49.019
You've solved it.

00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:50.179
You're on the other side of it.

00:57:51.079 --> 00:57:51.959
And you're right.

00:57:51.959 --> 00:57:55.039
There's some of these things that we're never going to understand.

00:57:55.299 --> 00:58:02.239
We may never, we may never come to quote acceptance of them, you know, and, and everybody's got their own process.

00:58:02.419 --> 00:58:04.039
Everybody's going to be on their own, you know, place.

00:58:05.139 --> 00:58:08.019
Like as if for me, I've done things one way you've done things.

00:58:08.980 --> 00:58:10.500
Grief is, it's really interesting.

00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:12.379
It's both universal and it's unique.

00:58:13.239 --> 00:58:15.019
We all, we all have grief experiences.

00:58:15.500 --> 00:58:19.879
We all have, you know, similar feelings and stuff, but everybody processes them differently.

00:58:20.219 --> 00:58:26.219
I remember my daughter came home, Kayla, after Shana passed and she goes, how can you stay in the house?

00:58:26.579 --> 00:58:31.539
You know, because all the memories of Shana here, my wife and I are like, well, how can we move?

00:58:32.779 --> 00:58:36.379
First of all, it's like, it's expensive and we, where we're going to go.

00:58:37.259 --> 00:58:44.000
And then eventually again, we kind of flip to like, now this is a place where Shana grew up and her bedroom was here and her stuff is here.

00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:48.459
I don't want to, you know, I don't want to leave that, but other people, it's exact opposite.

00:58:48.819 --> 00:58:51.019
They're like, I just had to get out and start over again.

00:58:51.319 --> 00:58:54.559
I know people are like, I can't live in the same town.

00:58:54.879 --> 00:58:56.519
I need to, and that's fine.

00:58:56.879 --> 00:58:59.139
Whatever, whatever, you know, works for you.

00:58:59.379 --> 00:59:02.980
We're all going to go through a unique way of the way we process it.

00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:17.939
And I've always, I've always wondered, you know, if it wasn't a wildfire, if it was, you know, a horrific car accident.

00:59:18.099 --> 00:59:29.399
I mean, she didn't drive, but you know, if three of them were lost in a car accident, I don't, I don't know if I'd be able to be in my home without them there.

00:59:33.619 --> 00:59:38.839
And I've always wondered if it was different circumstances, would I be able to do it?

00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:41.819
And then finally, one day I was like, why am I doing this to myself?

00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:43.819
That's not what happened.

00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:46.039
And there's nothing I can do about it.

00:59:46.339 --> 00:59:48.639
So why torture myself, you know?

00:59:49.259 --> 00:59:49.359
Yeah.

00:59:52.230 --> 00:59:52.529
Yeah.

00:59:52.769 --> 01:00:06.569
The human, it's interesting, the things that we do, we torment ourselves with, because, you know, Shana had a friend, Victoria, who was like a year older than Shana there, but they were on the same volleyball team and Victoria had a brain tumor.

01:00:07.169 --> 01:00:10.669
So she died slowly over a period, I guess, of a couple of years.

01:00:10.809 --> 01:00:12.989
So we knew she was, you know, terminal.

01:00:13.389 --> 01:00:21.230
And so Shana passed in June, Victoria passed in December, right after Shana, which of course, Shana's was suddenly had no idea it was coming.

01:00:21.809 --> 01:00:24.769
And then you sit there and you play these games, you said, well, which is worse?

01:00:25.009 --> 01:00:27.029
Is it worse to lose them suddenly and unexpectedly?

01:00:27.709 --> 01:00:30.209
Or is it worse to have them, you know, get a terminal illness?

01:00:30.369 --> 01:00:33.789
And I'm like, why, why do we, why am I going through that?

01:00:36.039 --> 01:00:40.339
Well, I think it's our brains way of just trying to make sense of our grief.

01:00:41.119 --> 01:00:41.219
Yeah.

01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:54.519
You know, I, I always overanalyze things and I try to, you know, make everything make sense.

01:00:54.980 --> 01:01:10.619
And there are just some things that happen in our lives that are never meant to make sense, and are never meant to be wrapped up in a box with a little bow and you know, this is how it's gonna happen.

01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:21.119
And I gave up on trying to make sense of it.

01:01:24.569 --> 01:01:26.409
Because I was doing nothing but hurting myself.

01:01:27.230 --> 01:01:27.329
Yeah.

01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:43.339
You know, this is now the start of the, the start of the book talks about I died that night too.

01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:46.980
I lost three quarters of my heart.

01:01:48.359 --> 01:01:51.819
The three quarters of my heart is still empty.

01:01:54.059 --> 01:01:58.019
And I thought that that loss was the end of my story.

01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:01.399
But I've now realized it was actually the beginning.

01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:03.899
Yes, I love that.

01:02:04.179 --> 01:02:05.199
I think it's so well put.

01:02:09.139 --> 01:02:12.949
That's, that's what I'm trying to do.

01:02:12.949 --> 01:02:13.669
Yeah.

01:02:14.109 --> 01:02:16.809
And I feel guilty because it's taken me so long.

01:02:17.489 --> 01:02:23.029
And we feel guilty way more than we should after a loss.

01:02:24.730 --> 01:02:28.869
I felt guilty that it's taken me nine years to get to this place.

01:02:29.709 --> 01:02:32.269
You know, why couldn't I have done this five years ago?

01:02:32.989 --> 01:02:34.809
Maybe it would have had more of an impact.

01:02:34.809 --> 01:02:38.509
And we have to give ourselves grace.

01:02:39.069 --> 01:02:44.649
It just in your grief, you are never doing anything wrong.

01:02:46.049 --> 01:02:48.069
Don't ever think that you are.

01:02:48.069 --> 01:03:00.819
Yeah, I think I, wherever you are, I tell people wherever you are in your grief journey, it's right where you're supposed to be.

01:03:01.199 --> 01:03:03.579
There is no, there is no timeline.

01:03:03.819 --> 01:03:08.639
And as you said, so well, and we beat ourselves up for not moving faster.

01:03:09.099 --> 01:03:11.279
You know, it's like, why, why is fast important?

01:03:12.439 --> 01:03:14.819
It takes, it takes time.

01:03:15.919 --> 01:03:18.059
And I, you mentioned earlier, time healing wounds.

01:03:18.199 --> 01:03:20.559
And I tell people time doesn't heal all wounds.

01:03:20.779 --> 01:03:31.759
Time allows us to heal our wounds, allows us to happen, but we have to do the work as you've done, you know, and, and every, again, every relationship is different.

01:03:31.899 --> 01:03:32.879
Every person is different.

01:03:32.980 --> 01:03:34.239
Every circumstance is different.

01:03:34.739 --> 01:03:37.219
It's going to take some of us longer to get to certain points other.

01:03:37.799 --> 01:03:43.579
And we're going to have parts of our grief that we might call unhealed, you know, from a human perspective.

01:03:44.439 --> 01:03:45.379
And that's okay.

01:03:45.619 --> 01:03:50.659
You know, that's, that there's something about the human, the mystery of life.

01:03:51.319 --> 01:03:53.579
You know, you said we're, we tend to overanalyze.

01:03:53.739 --> 01:03:54.719
I'm one of those people too.

01:03:55.959 --> 01:03:56.639
How does this work?

01:03:56.639 --> 01:03:57.559
Why does this work?

01:03:58.299 --> 01:04:02.239
And one of the, my lessons in life I think is learning, you're not going to know everything.

01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:04.779
You're not even capable of never knowing everything.

01:04:05.059 --> 01:04:12.980
It's kind of going back to Job when God is talking to Job and he basically says to him, I couldn't even explain it to you if I tried, because you can't understand it.

01:04:14.359 --> 01:04:19.459
And just being, that has freed me up from a lot because I'm like, I don't have to understand it.

01:04:19.759 --> 01:04:24.939
You know, I have to deal with what's here and move forward, which is exactly what you're doing.

01:04:28.519 --> 01:04:36.059
uh, Joe, that's really what it feels like.

01:04:36.719 --> 01:04:39.019
It's, it's felt like that for a long time.

01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:43.919
And people have told me that over the years and I'm nothing special.

01:04:44.219 --> 01:04:50.579
I'm, I'm just a dad who loves his daughters and a husband who loves his wife.

01:04:51.279 --> 01:05:05.019
And, um, I don't know why me, um, but what I do know is it had to be me.

01:05:07.609 --> 01:05:12.949
Well, that's, that's the other, you know, one of the other paradoxes we're all the same, but we're also all special.

01:05:13.709 --> 01:05:15.669
Well, nobody else has your story.

01:05:15.809 --> 01:05:17.869
Nobody else could tell the story that what you're telling it.

01:05:18.129 --> 01:05:19.709
You are, you are something special.

01:05:20.469 --> 01:05:23.469
Um, you are, you're, you're an inspiration.

01:05:23.929 --> 01:05:28.569
You're an example of the way to, to, to walk this journey of what, what's possible.

01:05:29.069 --> 01:05:39.669
Um, and people watching this that are in early grief, I say to them, be patient because you're not going to be there next week or next month, but you can get there.

01:05:39.929 --> 01:05:49.369
And also to, again, to do the work, you know, to, to have your grief witnessed, you know, that, that, that feeling, that drive you had, I need to get this out.

01:05:49.589 --> 01:05:51.449
That's extremely important.

01:05:51.469 --> 01:05:55.909
You know, when we're in grief, we're not meant to isolate and the shame can isolate us.

01:05:56.089 --> 01:05:57.649
The survivors go can isolate us.

01:05:57.989 --> 01:06:01.230
And you've done the exact opposite, which is I think a great model.

01:06:02.969 --> 01:06:12.819
I had to, um, if I didn't do it this way, I wouldn't be here.

01:06:13.619 --> 01:06:13.959
Yeah.

01:06:14.279 --> 01:06:25.179
It was just, it was just too much weight that I carried with me all time.

01:06:26.639 --> 01:06:38.539
And, you know, there's things through the process that we have to let go of.

01:06:38.879 --> 01:06:40.980
And, and I talk about that a lot too.

01:06:40.980 --> 01:06:47.259
And, um, my biggest one was anger.

01:06:48.559 --> 01:07:01.769
Um, I used to go to the grocery store and you know, I'd see a dad holding his daughter's hand and I hated that guy because his daughter's here and mine's not.

01:07:02.829 --> 01:07:04.129
I didn't know him.

01:07:04.609 --> 01:07:07.289
He could have been the Pope for all I would have known.

01:07:07.289 --> 01:07:23.779
You know, I would get to work and see a couple that just got married that are still holding hands because they love each other because they've been married only two days.

01:07:24.739 --> 01:07:38.409
And, and, and I hated him because he had his wife and I don't, there's things during the greeting process that we have to let go of.

01:07:40.969 --> 01:07:45.989
And it's okay.

01:07:46.509 --> 01:07:54.069
And I want people to know that when they let go of a certain part of that grief, that's not them taking the steps backwards.

01:07:54.089 --> 01:07:55.629
It's actually taking steps forward.

01:07:56.089 --> 01:07:56.269
Yeah.

01:07:57.289 --> 01:08:02.709
Because you cannot carry 100% of it with you for the rest of your life.

01:08:03.089 --> 01:08:12.889
There are pieces that you have to be willing to let go of in order to start rebuilding your heart and rebuilding the scars.

01:08:13.629 --> 01:08:30.359
And, and, um, and then the guilt associated with letting some of those things go can suck it right back into your life again.

01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:30.739
Yeah.

01:08:31.399 --> 01:08:32.980
You gotta, you gotta avoid that trap.

01:08:33.680 --> 01:08:33.779
Yeah.

01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:35.560
Yeah.

01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:40.640
Just allow yourself, brace and patience.

01:08:41.380 --> 01:08:47.520
Oh, and anybody can do it.

01:08:47.880 --> 01:08:59.730
And, and grief isn't a sign of loss.

01:09:00.110 --> 01:09:01.350
Grief is a sign of love.

01:09:02.530 --> 01:09:03.130
Absolutely.

01:09:03.750 --> 01:09:09.850
And I think the more that we grieve is just a reminder of how much we loved will be lost.

01:09:10.510 --> 01:09:10.610
Yeah.

01:09:11.970 --> 01:09:18.130
And if you look at it that way, grief can be a positive thing in your life.

01:09:20.290 --> 01:09:28.200
And it doesn't have to define you, but it can become a part of you.

01:09:29.460 --> 01:09:32.100
And I, I live every day for my girls.

01:09:33.220 --> 01:09:33.320
Okay.

01:09:33.820 --> 01:09:34.420
That's awesome.

01:09:34.820 --> 01:09:36.140
And it's so, it's so awesome.

01:09:36.760 --> 01:09:38.140
Michael, we're coming to the end of our time.

01:09:38.420 --> 01:09:40.999
I've really enjoyed having this conversation with you.

01:09:41.520 --> 01:09:46.560
Remind people of the name of your book and if people can reach out to you, how can they contact you?

01:09:46.780 --> 01:09:49.199
The book is called The Million Stages of Grief.

01:09:49.600 --> 01:09:51.079
It's available on Amazon.

01:09:51.940 --> 01:09:53.400
I also have a website.

01:09:53.699 --> 01:09:56.100
It's the millionstages.com.

01:09:57.800 --> 01:10:01.600
I've got other podcast episodes that I've been a part of.

01:10:01.740 --> 01:10:07.560
I've got different versions of the book available on there.

01:10:09.880 --> 01:10:18.820
There's also a contact section on the bottom where, where I would love, and it's been great reading some of these.

01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:23.800
I would love people to reach out and share their stories completely, completely confidential.

01:10:24.260 --> 01:10:31.680
You know, I'll never speak anybody's name or anything like that, but we have to talk about our hurts.

01:10:32.800 --> 01:10:37.860
And sometimes just writing it down and getting it off your chest helps.

01:10:40.260 --> 01:10:46.840
So it's been great to read where people are on their journeys and how the book has helped them.

01:10:47.420 --> 01:10:56.150
And we, we all have the power to change the world.

01:10:58.850 --> 01:11:00.369
One person at a time.

01:11:01.070 --> 01:11:01.170
Yeah.

01:11:02.170 --> 01:11:13.050
And every person that reads this, I hope, gets something out of it that can give them some healing and some peace.

01:11:13.670 --> 01:11:14.130
Yeah.

01:11:14.970 --> 01:11:20.770
Well, I want to say, I know that your, your wife Constance, Chloe, and Lily, all right.

01:11:21.170 --> 01:11:22.510
They're, I know they're proud of you.

01:11:23.170 --> 01:11:25.050
I know they're, they're here with you.

01:11:25.150 --> 01:11:26.329
I know they're, they're guiding you.

01:11:26.449 --> 01:11:29.430
Your love for them just comes through abundantly.

01:11:30.270 --> 01:11:31.970
So keep doing what you're doing.

01:11:34.659 --> 01:11:36.119
I will, I will do my best.

01:11:36.480 --> 01:11:36.860
I promise.

01:11:37.199 --> 01:11:37.760
All right.

01:11:37.880 --> 01:11:39.060
Have a great rest of your day.

01:11:39.240 --> 01:11:39.940
You too, sir.

01:11:40.140 --> 01:11:43.039
Thank you so much for having me.