When Your Dream Collides With A Nightmare- Patricia Crisafulli

Brian Smith  0:00  
Close your eyes and imagine what are the things in life that causes the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, or challenges, challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed we've been planted, and having been planted would grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith. By this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth and now I've got with the Patricia Crisafulli. And Patricia is the award winning New York Times best selling author of House of diamond and she's co author of Rwanda Inc. as well as a collection published by Hallmark Hallmark, titled inspired every day essays and stories brighten your day, give you hope and strengthen your faith. Her first novel is the secrets of Anita Harbor, which launches the Anita harbor Mystery Series by Woodhall press. The thing is this book that she's going to talk about today, she had a dream come true. In fact, they are getting a book published. But at the same time, she was dealing with the death of a sibling. So we're going to talk today about her how that happened. And the lessons that she learned some from it. So from that, with that, I want to welcome Patricia Crisafulli to grifter growth.

Patricia Crisafulli  1:33  
Thanks so much, Brian. I'm thrilled to be here.

Brian Smith  1:36  
Yeah, I'm really interested to talk to you more about you know, what happened with your getting your novel published. And as we kind of said before, so recording the influence of sometimes these tremendous events in our life, a lot of tragic events kind of at the same time. So tell me about your sister, first of all, well, thank

Patricia Crisafulli  1:53  
you. Yes. So, um, my sister I have, I am one of three sisters. And I'm the youngest in the three and we've always been close. Our lives are very different, but we're always very supportive of each other. When our middle Sister Bernadette, one who passed years ago, January, January of 2022, she had gone back to school at 40, became a teacher got her master's degree with honors, you know, had a successful teaching career. So, you know, she went in one path, my, our oldest sister, Jeanne is very creative. She's a fabric artist, as you know, as an avocation. And I have a former journalist and a writer, so very different has I moved across the country, but we always stayed supportive. And October of 2019, Bernadette was diagnosed with a rare cancer, and was almost beat it, and then came back, it came back, and it was very clear by the end of 2021, beginning of 2020, excuse me, I'm getting my Yeah, 2122 that she was losing traction against in her battle. And then suddenly, she died. And we were scrambling and want to keep certain family things, you know, when privacy but, you know, there was a dependent child who was a little older, but needed help. And suddenly, we're kind of reeling with the emotion and the practicality of all that needed to be done right. To within the family. And, and she was a single parent. And the fact that I, and my other life had this dream come true. What was my creative thesis for my MFA, a first novel was literally launching into press. So this was a train, I couldn't stop or say, Hey, I'm going to be a little late delivering a manuscript. In fact, I had just delivered the second book, which is coming out. So I had this this dual world of dealing with the siblings death and the, and I'm a doer, the practicality of that, and that helped me and hurt me. I will talk about that in a minute. And the fact that I had a busy day job and this creative dream coming true, and how to deal with parallel tracks, because it kind of felt disloyal to say, Hey, me. While I was mourning my sister, but I want to the little spoiler is she actually gave me the key to how to do that,

Brian Smith  4:38  
huh? Okay. Yeah, I care about that.

Patricia Crisafulli  4:41  
Okay. So, I live in on the West Coast and my sister lived on the east coast. So I flew back and it's, of course, it's COVID and you can't get into a hospital to see anybody. But she passed in hospice and inpatient hospice. And I could go in there, so I jumped on On airplane and flew across the country to say, essentially goodbye to my sister. Yeah. And while we were there, and she was lucid enough to kind of in and out and and out, I won't cry. Much of what she said didn't make a whole lot of sense because you know, she's on fentanyl patch and, but then she looked at me. And she raised up and she said, so like this. So what's new with the book? And I felt I the first thing I wanted to say is what we're not going to talk about that. And, and then I just said, Oh, everything's, everything's good. You know what's going to come out and fall of 2022. And next one, and it's good, thank you so much. It's so kind. And then she was bent, she was back into, you know, closed eyes. But I never forgot that in her animation. She knew who I was. And she knew who I was sister Trisha. And she knew who I was. She knew this little girl who grew up writing stories from the age of seven, she was okay with me having this dream that I was going to carry forward. We live on Pier and what that taught me was we live on parallel tracks. You know, I know stories, you've probably heard them up someone say, I lost this dear person in my life, and another family member had a baby. You know, I mean, sometimes it's like, we were balancing so many conflicting emotions, and events, and it can feel what do I feel today? The answer is all of the above. And I, I did not do a good job in the beginning. I'm a doer, and I got really into the doing, and not so much in the feeling. So it kind of eat through. And I had to work through being happy and thrilled and on and promoting and doing what I needed to do. And grieving and mourning and and doing a lot of guardian legal stuff, too. And whenever I would say I felt disloyal for being kind of happy for myself, I would remember my sister's words and say, she knew who you were like, This is Trisha, I recognize her. And she knew who I was. It was okay with her that I had this dream coming true because she specifically asked me about it literally, in the last moments of our conversation ever.

Brian Smith  7:37  
Wow. That is such an important lesson for us all to learn about there is this. A lot of times there's just sense of survivor's guilt. And it doesn't matter how our loved one passed, it doesn't matter what the relationship is, whether it's a parent and a child or a sibling or whatever. There's something about being in grief, we feel guilty. For me, we have those moments of joy.

Patricia Crisafulli  8:02  
Right? Yeah. Because it feels like, oh, you know that I'm not really sad. Or I'm not really, I didn't love this person enough. Or I'm self centered. You know, the inner critic, my inner critic is like, just never press, you know, sits right here on my shoulder and just tells me all kinds of terrible things. But I also made friends with my inner critic to say, Okay, well, that's a question I need to ask myself. Am I being disloyal? Am I being disingenuous? So I was able to squeak in and in memoriam and on my book, my they call it page proofs, the very last stage of production before the book ghost press. This is a murder mystery. Okay. I mean, I mean, isn't that ironic, right? It's a murder mystery. And, you know, people die and murder mysteries, kind of the classic Agatha Christie ish kind of mystery, right? And I have grieving people in my book. And I have, and I was able to take some of my emotions and put them in book one, and also two and three, that's coming down, right? But I am so I was able to put a stamp on it took to put a tie to give her a presence in the book. Of course, of course, I had thanked her for being my sister, but I made it I was able to change that and to honor the dates the bookends of her life, and to say she was a champion and put a say, as I am reading these pages she has passed, it was literally within weeks. I was able to do that. But I answered that inner critic to say, Well, what do I do about these? So I listened to my inner criticism and used it as a teaching moment to say, alright, well how do I and I'm big on ritual. How do I ritualize the processing of these two very, very different emotion sets right up, and oh my gosh, this is so sad. I feel so completely overwhelmed. Oh, overwhelmed was like my like, go to, like, I'd wake up in the morning say to my husband, I'm so overwhelmed, I go to bed, I'm so overwhelmed. And I do a lot of walks and prayer and meditation and talking to folks. And just, and just going through it, I made sure I kept some time for feeling and not just doing. And not like I had a choice, because the feeling was just bam, I mean, it was just going to get my attention and off. And then there were I the beautiful hiking trail, just just up the hill from me. And there was an awful lot of crying and yelling that would go on from the top of hills. And, and then began to talk to Bernadette about it, you know, I would talk to her about my feelings about missing her and letting her know that we're all okay, you know, getting frustrated because this should have been done before you went. And why didn't we have this conversation? And also just making it real? And it's been slow. But it it's been holistic?

Brian Smith  11:13  
Yeah. So so we're binding How long has it been since your sister passed?

Patricia Crisafulli  11:19  
It has been a year and almost a year, almost 14 months? It's been pretty quick.

Brian Smith  11:24  
Yeah, that's that's that's relatively short period of time when it comes to a loss like that. You know, I think it's really interesting that that moment of lucidity just says that was that was one of her only moments of lucidity that she was coming in

Patricia Crisafulli  11:38  
and out. You know, like she was able to ask a certain questions. And I mean, God bless her about 75% of what she said to us at that moment was complete nonsense, but you know, because, I mean, it's the the medication and the painkiller and the fact that I think maybe the cancer at that point, it's spread to her brain. So it was one of maybe, like eights, you know, in an hour and a half, because it's about all the time she had like to really converse is Mona, maybe eight or nine, maybe, maybe less, you know, moments of, of conversation. I, my, my other sisters husband had driven me then. And so he was there. And she said hi to us. And then she closed her eyes. And she was talking to me. And then she looked over and she said, Well, Ben, when did you get here? And he'd been sitting there all along. So there were a lot of those kinds of we just went with it, right? Yeah. Oh, well, I was. Yeah, we you know, and she. So it was that's what kind of made it such a pearl. Is that it was this very moment of a CEU.

Brian Smith  12:45  
Yeah, there and there's there's no explanation, no medical explanation for these moments of terminal lucidity. Sometimes people that have had Alzheimer's or people that have been in comas for years, suddenly, right toward the end, something breaks through, and there's their spirits somehow reconnect with their brain, and they'll be able to get a message through like that. And I can only imagine that how much comfort that probably brings you even to this day.

Patricia Crisafulli  13:10  
It does. And it's funny, because in the moment, I was kind of shocked like, wow, that's weird. You'd ask that, you know, yeah, you know, because I mean, I'm, I'm processing because I hadn't physically seen her. And since her decline, and I'm just it's, you know, it's it's kind of sensory overload. But over time, I've replayed that. And it wasn't a mumble. I mean, it was the spawn, eyes open. And, you know, like this little burst of spirits you know, and I was like, that's her. And it's, it's been such a gift, you know, I can't remember the the author's name and I saw apologized, you author the amazing book out there called signs. And I'm so sorry, I can't remember the author's last name. Her first name is Laura. And I just read it recently, kind of about, you know, how the other world you know, intersects our lives and there's one medium. Yes. And the teacher one Jackson. Yes. Thank you. I knew what there was three names and I could not Yes, yes. Yes. And it's amazing. And there's a line in there when she says the people on the other side, our loved ones who have passed, they want us to be happy. And you know, whatever someone's either philosophical or religious you know, point of view is and I have mine and we all have our own you know, what's next and and that was such a comfort because if I truly believe in my belief system and you know a hereafter right I'm we say thing What do we say we say rest in peace. We say you never forgotten we give our love that way. Well, you was astounding to me to think of that it's coming this way, too at the same time. So of course, you know, they want us to be happy. And I think our loved ones are bullying us up in our grief. And in our How do I figure this out and anger and band and mminton any other feeling we're feeling that that is coming the other way that there is a relationship that continues, and our lives well lived are a tribute to them. It is not disloyal. And, you know, my sister gave me that gift. She could have asked me a million other things. Right. But she asked me that question.

Brian Smith  15:46  
Yeah, I said, I think I think it's such an important lesson for us all because there is and when my my daughter passed away, I had this sense also of like, well, it's my duty to mourn for the rest of my life. It's my duty to show everybody how sad I am. But if we really, as you said, if we really hold on to our beliefs, and we believe that they're there, they're in peace, and they're happy and they're healthy. They want us to be as happy as they wanted us to be when they were still here in the physical if not more, so.

Patricia Crisafulli  16:17  
Yes. Yes. And when we have these these emotional, these intense emotional experiences, they do infuse our lives. I mean, I used to say when God when I get where I got my heart broken, God gave me a bigger heart didn't give me a stronger one didn't give me an unbreakable one just gave me a bigger one. Right. And I I'm so sorry for your loss and loss every person on this podcast listening in, in all these losses are devastating. And we can't imagine I got you know, losing a child or someone losing a spouse losing a sibling was different than losing our my parents, it's it's very each one is I am learning is is very different. They affect us differently. Because of that, you know, who we think we will outlive who we think we won't outlive, you know, it's just and but that we exist in time, you know, our linear time, and they're outside of time. So we are living an ongoing relationship with that person who has passed. So we know our linear time is going to come along, they're going to continue with us, but they are in a place of peace and wholeness. I'm sorry to preach. And I hope I don't offend somebody. But this is just my belief system. They are full and complete. Like their you know, their journey is done. They are where they are. And they can then help our journey is our linear journey goes along until I believe we kind of meet up again. But I didn't want to want to miss the point that this love this, this how to like talk with my hands without them I would be mute right now. Without that help. Our journey is not as is easy. It is not as its whole. I mean, we need their help. And I had an as a doer. And as somebody who is self reliance. I had to actually that was a point of humility for me. Yeah, I need

Brian Smith  18:24  
her help. Yeah, and didn't have to apologize for preaching here. Because, you know, I work with people that are in grief. And it's interesting, because we're not supposed to impose our beliefs on other people. And I tell people I don't. But I don't even like the word belief. Because I believe there's so much evidence that we are spiritual beings having a human experience that our loved ones do go on. And I approach it from a very scientific point of view. But in our society, we feel like we have to apologize for stating to be just plain facts. So I, I respect what everybody chooses to believe. But on the other hand, I don't back down from selling something. It's my mission to make this normal to because it is so helpful to put meaning into life to relieve that guilt. I mean, you have a choice, you can believe that your sister, you know, her life was cut short and she died a very painful death and you're never going to see her again. You could choose to believe that that's that's a that's a that's a choice. But what good is that going to do? What was I going to leave you?

Patricia Crisafulli  19:36  
And where is that going to lead anyone else? Right, right. No. And I as a as a creative writer, you know, and again, the irony is, is that I write murder mysteries. So I'm dealing all the time with death and who done it right. And, you know, I have to say the title of the book, the secrets of wanting to harbor it. I have Uh, what characters I've created, who I created when my sister was alive. And well, because this was my, this was my thesis when I got my MFA at Northwestern. So I was a lot of character study, it's very character driven, as well as plot driven. And all this and I looked back in, in my own manuscript, and in my own book and realize that as an artist, as a writer, my, my path of having lost my parents, you know, previously, my mother died when I was in my 20s, my dad died when I was in my 40s. So I lost my mom, pretty young, I was able to take that, I think it was unconsciously, and create characters that were more in depth, that felt more real, that we're dealing with loss in the book, because it's a murder mystery, and also people who are dealing with danger and, and dealing with feeling vulnerable. And all this, because our life experiences infuse everything else. And for me, it comes out that way. For someone else, it might be, you know, a whole new register of singing, it might be a whole new genre of music, it might be creating a podcast, like what we do, all of us, every part of us infuses what we do every day, our day job or a creative job. And I see that, that, you know, part of my honoring those who went before me, was the creation of my books, even though they have nothing to do with the topic of grieving, there are grieving individuals. And there there are people who are living real lives or people who have escaped tragedy, who are then able, because of the protagonist to go on. And I look back and I said, Well, maybe that's, the more I feel, the more I can emote through my characters. And again, that's been a teaching cycle as well. And I, I thought, well, am I using my life experience? Like? Well, yeah, because that's the tool set that we're given is, every day our life experiences. So whatever that pushes us to create, whether it's a garden, or a screenplay, or just the next conversation we have, the more of all of our experience we can bring, the more we can heal and teach ourselves and share those learning and experiences with others.

Brian Smith  22:28  
Yeah. Well, as you said, you know, using your your life experience, that's, that's what makes the characters real. That's what makes the characters relatable. So interesting. I don't I don't read a lot of of fiction. And I was interviewing guy who had written a fiction book not too long ago. And I said, well as the as the protagonist, is it based on you? And he goes, No, no, it's not. It's a totally fictional character. And as we started going through the interview, I said, I looked at him I said, it is you. This is I don't I don't know if he was in denial, or he didn't recognize it. But I'm like, This is you. We write what we know.

Patricia Crisafulli  23:06  
Yeah, I'm an all of my characters, including the villain. But it's my you know, my protagonist is she's 20 years younger than I am. Gabriella domine chi, you know, Italian American, and living in a small town. So the life so I get it with the other author was saying, My character's life circumstances in the secrets of Anita harbor are not mine. I did not have to leave New York City to move back to my hometown. I don't live there now. Right. But so the light so the details, but the essence of the person, you know, oh, what a surprise. She is a doer and tries to push down her feeling she she tries to barrel through, she has a hard time trusting other people, she has a hard time asking for help. Oh, oh, have you met me. And, and that allow me to relate to her also, you know, she has an Italian American mother, Agnes de who came from Italy. And Agnes is of the kind of the comic relief and the book, and I infused in her, you know, certain characteristics of people I grew up with, but also this the fierceness of a mother. And I took that for myself. And I also see that, you know, there's people that surround her that view things a little differently. And I think that's part of the sisterly relationship, the ones that can kind of call truth on you. And I, you know, that definitely, you know, is a reflection of the relationship, the loving relationship I have with both my sisters Jake, my oldest sister, Jeanne and Bernadette who passed is that when your sisters you can kind of go I gotta tell you, like, I see this. Yeah. And you're not taking care of that. Not in a judgmental way. Like you're not taking care of yourself. Or, you know, I mean, God bless her Bernadette looking at me on her deathbed saying, So what's new on the book? Also, I mean, that one like is keeps echoing back to me. Which if I want to take it to the ultimate degree is, I know where I'm going, where were you going? I mean, you can take that so many ways. And maybe that's the fiction writer storyteller in me. But truly, you know, we are each other's stories. We have a starring role in each other's stories.

Brian Smith  25:35  
Yeah, exactly. And humans are always have been, we're fascinated by stories or our lives are our stories, you know, we so that's, that's, that's who we are and our essence. And I believe that we're talking about what we believe I believe that what we're living in is like a play. It's, it's, it's real in terms of the experience, but on some level, it's not certainly not final. It's it's a thing we come in, we play these roles we, we do these things with and for each other, and when our loved ones step off the stage, they're still involved. I mean, it's, it's interesting, because I used to say the analogy, it's like, well, the, their role is over there, you know, they're out. That's not even true. They're still involved. I think they're still involved in our lives.

Patricia Crisafulli  26:22  
They're part of the course off stage, right? You know, it's not you go to a play and you hear like someone you hear shouting, and they need more voices. Right? Yeah, once upon a time, I was on a plane, I had a singer offstage, we, you know, with a bunch of people because they needed more voices on stage. I think that's what's happened in their singing offstage. And I and I've listened, you know, like, you know, my dad passed in 2006. And he used to have a favorite saying, he'd say, Trishy, tough guy, you know, tell you got to see, most people in life, go for the fast nickel, you got to go for the slow dime. Which was, you know, it's a great saying. And I actually put that into one of the financial books that I wrote in my, in my, you know, very interesting patchwork of a writing career. And no surprise, soon after dad passed, I began finding dimes everywhere. Now there is a thing. Well, if you buy a red sports car, all you see on the highway are red sports cards, I get that this is different. One time I'm in LaGuardia Airport, about to sit down and one of those plastic seats in the gate. And there's a dime on my chair. Nobody else. The millions of people picked up the dime. It's on my chair, as I'm about to sit and honestly only chair open, like a law. Like, does like anybody else not see this. I opened up the dryer one day in one shot out at me. And I'm like, now you're showing off that? Yeah. So listen, is there just a bunch of loose change being thrown up by unseen people? I don't know. But here's the thing, whether it's a rainbow or a four leaf clover, or song or whatever, it's a trigger. And it's mine. And I can claim it to say it's a pause, to remember and reflect and to feel, you're still here, you're still aware of me, I'm still aware of you. Touch point, touch point, touch point touch point. I'm relieving that my Bernadette sign is is it's a it's rainbows. Because one day when I was out kind of like doing one of my grousing processing, like I live in Oregon. So there's this rainbow shot across the sky. And I was like, oh, okay, that'll work. And then I'm like, Well, come on. That's a little cliche, isn't it? You know? Well, then I'm sitting in a, I had to fill out some paperwork, you know, the doctor's office. And. And the music soundtrack was some was over the rainbow. And I'm like, Okay, next day, and then I'm watching. I think it was, I think it was Jimmy Fallon, The Tonight Show. And someone's talking about a remake of The Wizard of Oz and over the rainbow. And I'm like, Okay, three times. Yeah. In 12 hours. All right. It's your sign.

Brian Smith  29:18  
Exactly. And it's funny, you mentioned that because just this morning, I was doing my walk, and I was listening to a book and they referenced the song Somewhere Over the Rainbow. And, you know, and then you bring it up in our interview here, you know, a couple of hours later. And rainbows are you know, people might say, Well, those are those are Common Signs, but it is these it's interesting how these things, you know, happen. You know, I was working with someone she's an intuitive and she said, you're going to start seeing more more signs and synchronicities. And so, this morning, I get up, I'm on Facebook, and I see that I came up with first name, but the last founding member of Leonard Skinner did pass just passed away. Last name is rossington. And I'm like, Okay, it's interesting. I read this And then I'm on my walk and listeners book. And the woman says, Well, I went to this club that people used to go to Leonard Skander would play there and the Allman Brothers Band, and she only mentioned those two bands. And I'm like, that's an interesting coincidence.

Patricia Crisafulli  30:13  
That's an interesting coincidence. It Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Smith  30:18  
Yeah. So what, when you when we start to look for the things and like, even what your sister said to you, when she passed, someone might say, Well, that was just, you know, just had a moment of lucidity. I think it was a message for you, that you can carry forward now. And there's something about when people are again, going through those final stages, they get these bursts of energy, these bursts of clarity. It's called terminal lucidity. And they will deliver messages that can affect you for the rest of your life.

Patricia Crisafulli  30:49  
And I and why not pick them up? Folks? Why not take that gift? Why not? If I came over to your house, and I said here, I have this wonderful book, you enjoy this author. And here's this book, and I saw it at the bookstore and I got to win one for me and one for you. Are you not going to open it? Or you're not going to read? Or you're not going to say what is this? Right? Are you not going to pick it up? Somebody comes over to your house with a peach pie? And I thought of you I know you like this? Are you not going to taste it? Like, like, so why are we not going to pick up these messages? You know, it kind of doesn't matter to me whether the rainbow is her or if it's not her, or whatever it makes me think of her. And it gives me hope, and comfort. And oh, by the way, when these coincidences become almost to the point of being ridiculous. And like, Okay, I'm going to give in and say it is you and that you're sending me something because it drives me deeper into my feelings. And in the feeling of especially the one that being supported and loved. I get more at peace, I get clarity, I'm able to do the stuff here that I need to do for her, you know, state stuff and trust stuff and all that stuff. And I feel like it's just a smile. It isn't a prediction of like, your life is gonna be great. It's I'm here. Don't worry. I'm here.

Brian Smith  32:17  
I think what you just said is brilliant. Because I think sometimes people might say, well, what is what is the point of the science, right? What's the point of the dimes or the feathers or the, you know, for me, it's times two, by the way, my, when my daughter passed, I said, I'm gonna dimes. And I could tell you lots of dimes stories. So I get that. But what you just said is really profound. It's like a gives us what we need to continue while we're here. It's that it's that inspiration that it gives us it gives us the ability to do all the all the stuff that we have to do while we're here. Just like little nudges along the way.

Patricia Crisafulli  32:51  
Yes. Not just along the way. And, and I love what you just said, like when people say what is the purpose? Like, what why should I pay attention? Well, that's the that's the question they should ask themselves. It's a great question. Why? Because I kind of said, like, Rainbow, huh? What do you think? I mean? And I was like, Well, why not? So I answered my question with a question. Like, like, you know, I could have kept it in the privacy of my own mind. Right? And what what harm is it? What is it if it's just a touch point, even if it's every time I hear is that great Old for assaults for tops on Bernadette? You know, I don't know, if you, you're younger than I do remember it. And you know, every time I hear once in a blue moon, right, I gotta turn it off, because that was her, her name or her. Like, it's a moment of pausing. It's kind of like sometimes in some churches, they have like a memorial like when somebody's it's anniversary of a death or whatever. Or we we remember all those who've passed or that we read names, like, it's the same kind of thing, it can be a moment of just remembering so what's the point? The point is, it's an opportunity to step out of daily life to remember, you know, and I don't know, I used those dimes I had I collected so many over the years, I finally gave it to a with when change became really scarce during COVID I gave up my dining collection to to a charity so that we would go into circulation, right. Think of all the metaphors

Brian Smith  34:36  
Yeah, yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And the thing again, I you know, why not? We we have allowed our people around us to say there's no there's no magic in the world. You know, it's all just mechanical. Don't believe this. So again, we We apologize even for saying our beliefs, not loud because we feel We're scared we're going to offend somebody. But the question is not why, but why not? Why? Why shouldn't I be and I'm an engineer and I, everybody that listens, my podcast already knows. But I'm a very rational person. I'm a chemical engineer by training. I, when something happens, my wife pretty much every time she sees a cardinal, she's like, it's a sign. And I'm like, No, we live in Ohio. It's the state bird. So quite a few Cardinals here. So one day, though, I was I was up doing my walk. And this Cardinal flies in front of me. And I was like, to my daughter, I'm like, Okay, I don't know if that's a sign or not to Cardinal. You know, I see card a lot. And then immediately, like this little yellow Finch flew like right in front of my face and landed in New York next week, kind of like, okay, you didn't think the cardigan was a sign? How about this?

Patricia Crisafulli  35:44  
How about this? Yes. And the blooper over here next, like what's going on? Yeah. I mean, you know, why not? Why not? I mean, I think we can live a life and it's nothing, it isn't constant. I don't think I we could I could live in constant, right. I mean, I mean, if, but it's about noticing. I think that's the other point is that um, because we have this little bit of beveled glass in our house, the sun comes in and refraction. It's a prism right, which is what a rainbow is it's it's light is refracting through through water vapor, and it's refracting. So, swamp is like a little mini rainbow on my kitchen counter on my floor. And I now notice, it's probably was always there. And I noticed right behind Bernadette. And I think noticing is one of the biggest gifts, whether I noticing the cardinal or the dime, or the rainbow, or I'm noticing, you know, you know that pain in your shoulder that maybe you want to take a look at me or whatever, or you're noticing, I haven't seen my neighbor and I want to check in on that person. Or I noticing that we're out of milk, or I know, there's I mean, I'm saying things that are sublime, ridiculous, but it's so easy to get wrapped into the doing the overwhelming pace, the just the everything that's been going on that we we forget to notice. How do I feel? How do you feel? When's the last time I talked to this person? When have I? Am I taking care of myself? What am I behind a dentist appointment or whatever or anything? Like, the more we are reminded, notice your life, notice your environment, you're not forgotten. They're not forgotten. Like that, to me kind of just completely frames it. Notice, because life gets richer with the cardinal in the yellow bird and the dime, and the the rainbow and the song on the radio and all of it. It's a moment, refresh center, move on, knowing you're loved, they're loved. And we're all supported.

Brian Smith  38:02  
Absolutely. And you talked earlier about being a doer, and and in grief, the importance of feeling as opposed to doing

Patricia Crisafulli  38:12  
Oh, you know, I'm, I'm, uh, you know, this is still a struggle for me. Someone said to me, have you grieved your sister yet? I was like, Yeah, I'll put that on the list the to do list. Okay. And I same thing happened with my dad. I'm was his executor. And, again, not to get into too much. But my dad was the victim of a huge fraud just before he died, like, real bad. And it was complicated and lawsuits and you know, when this criminal investigation and some of it went on after he died because he was the victim of it. And when we it was, I think it was years before I could even it took me seven years to get that cleaned up. And I had and I thought well, I never really grieved my dad. And I thought well, you know, maybe that was how I did grieve was in my doing because I had intense feeling through this mess when his case right. And I had to allow myself to feel when I did feel it wasn't like okay, I got 15 minutes I got a great No, no, because I'm not I'm a person who can go through through a funeral absolutely dried. But I could walk into the when we lived in Chicago, the you know, the Italian grocery store and see a man who looked you know, had reminded me of my dad and burst into tears over the arugula. Go figure. Or we were heard a church him two Sundays ago that happened to be one that they played in my sister's funeral and that kind of undid had me a little bit kind of quietly, but it was like I wasn't expecting that. And to let these moments be kind of organic, of feeling. It's, it's just making sure I don't compart I'm trying because this is a work in progress not compartmentalized so much that, that I see feeling from some other time that I let it come up in the moment. I asked myself what I'm feeling, but not to make it look like something else. Every every I do, you know, I was told this, and I believe that everyone does grieve a little differently.

Brian Smith  40:39  
Yeah, and you you said something there, again, really fascinating, I think about about grief. And it reminded me of someone I was just talking to recently, you know, us being doers. But we all grieve differently. So no, and I'm working in the green field, I You just kind of maybe changed my mind on this a little bit. Because I've seen some people that when someone passes, it's almost like they go numb, because there's so much to get done. So they go into doing mode, right, they've got to deal with the doctor, they got to deal with the coroner, they got to deal with the attorneys, they got to deal with the well, they've got to, you have to make all the funeral arrangements, you have to go through all this stuff. So you don't really have time to feel. But I was I was talking with someone the other day that this person is almost like manic after they're after the passing of their of their loved one, I don't know and be respect their privacy. And I'm like, it seems like you're just doing too much. But maybe that's part of part of his process, you know, right? Because the important thing is you said is it's the feeling, it's the and this person is doing a lot to honor their loved one too, it's really about the respect that they have for the for the loved one. So there's no one right way to grieve or to not grieve. And we do compartmentalize, because we have to get out because we do have to get things done. And I'll never forget being you know, at the funeral home with my daughter, and she was 15. It was unexpected. And they're asking me all these questions. And I'm like, Okay, I don't want to make any more decisions right now. But those decisions all had to be made, you know, and we only had a few days to make all these decisions. And so you have to kind of turn off your feelings for a little while.

Patricia Crisafulli  42:19  
And, and I love what you said about this individual you were talking to that they had so much to do. And a lot of it was an honor of that person. You know, I used to say that, because I would wake up two o'clock in the morning. And think of like the next thing I had to think about or worry about, right? And finally, I was like, Bernadette, can you not wake me up at two in the morning to get you know. And then I realized that was the time that my brain would stop doing my day job and my creative job and everything else. And finally, I just said, Well, you're gonna wake up at two o'clock in the morning, I think it was part of the processing of everything. So just go with it. And guess what, you know, it went on for months. I mean, not every single but I mean, there was a lot of waking up and a lot of thinking and a lot of this a lot of worry, a lot of hand wringing and a lot of this and that. And finally just said, Well, whatever the thought is, catalogue it, deal with it in the light of day, because some of it was nonsense. And some of it was just my anxiety, there was usually a little nugget of truth of something I had to do. And guess what, the more things got done, the less I got awakened to in the morning. And finally it kind of subsided. And I think that was my body and my mind, processing grief and a reality, a different daily linear time reality of someone not being here. And I don't hear in daily interactive life, right. And I chose to see that as part of my part of my grieving process. Yeah. Because it was gonna happen anyway. And it was a concurrent and so so rather than judge it. I said, Well, this is just where I am right now.

Brian Smith  44:12  
Yeah. And that reminds me of something. You said that because I asked you for some, some topics to talk about beforehand. And you one of the things you said was how to embark on solving the mysteries of your life by turning every frustration into a fascination.

Patricia Crisafulli  44:24  
Yes, absolutely. So one of the things Okay, let's use the example of science, you know, it's a mystery, you know, so much of like, what happens next, there is scientific proof we, you know, there we know that we are, I believe, as you said, spiritual beings having a human experience, but you know, what does it you know, look like and what does it feel like and where and how, like, folks, that's the big mystery, you know, and I'm gonna go with when my time comes with a big list of questions.

Brian Smith  44:55  
Yeah, yes, yes.

Patricia Crisafulli  44:59  
So there are These mysteries and there are, there are the why the why is always the most compelling of any question, right? Of everything from Why am I here? Why did this happen? Why do Am I the one? Why, why, why, why why? When we some of those, we can't have a definitive answer. But as we go toward the why, I think we begin to chip away a bit a little bit. You know, why, you know, you know, the big existential, why am I here? Right? Well, what do I believe about that? Is this all nonsense and folly, and life is meaningless and whatever, or, well, I am here, and I have relationships in my life. And I believe that, you know, so I can start to, I can't maybe solve the big why, but we go toward the mystery. It's like reading a mystery novel, you see another clue. And you see another nuance and you see another connection. And it becomes interesting and engaging. And it should be a metaphor for life. Because rather than, yes, there's going to be frustrations along those wise, but we are going to see that there are hints of where we can find meaning. And where things begin to make sense. Where there are parallels where there are connection points. And if we go toward them, or going into the mystery of our own lives, and things, some of those answers that we want, will be delivered to us.

Brian Smith  46:50  
Yeah, I love that. I love what you just said there. Because, as you were saying, I was thinking, you know, we're going to ask why, anyway, yes, but we can ask it, we can ask it from frustration, like, Why? Why did this happen to me? This shouldn't have happened, you know, from that perspective, or we can ask it from a point of curiosity. Why? What's what's what's the lesson here? What's bigger? What's the bigger thing what's yet to be revealed?

Patricia Crisafulli  47:17  
No, because I'm sorry, I got so excited by windows. Go ahead. Okay, so my older sister, Janie, and I we lost our middle sister, I'm gonna grab a picture. Just don't oh, here we go. It's right behind me. So you can see when Bernadette got her master's degree, that's me as Bernadette and golden Genie. Okay. So I put the sisters here. So we can peek? Yeah. So we were talking about, you know, what do we do? You know, how do we handle certain family custodial things, right. And our relationship, which was always good, God even deeper. And God even, we make more time for each other. And we make sure that we don't lose, like we enhance that sisterly connection of the two surviving sisters. And so that's Bernadette's give to us. Yeah, yeah, she didn't die for that. I'm not saying that. But in every awful thing that happens, there's a your, your show is called grieved growth, there is a growth opportunity. And whether it happens, because it's delivered to us, or we wake up and say, this is just so awful, I have to do something good with it. Like those moments, those moments happen. In a one of the most profound places I saw that was in Rwanda is we all recall in the early 90s, there was the horrific, just unfathomable genocide in Rwanda, a million people killed in 100 days. And, you know, going back and the book I wrote with a co authored with my friend, Andrea Redman was on the economic revival, post genocide. So it was an economic and business book. But in talking to individuals who had gone through the genocide, who had been in country, they were not part of the diaspora, but the people in the diaspora also suffered, the whole country suffered. I mean, they would tell the stories of a profound loss of neighbors killing neighbors and because they were incited by evil, abrasive or evil regime outside. And the profoundness of and I don't want to minimize this because it's not my story to tell but I was privileged I say put have a lunch, I was honored, I was humbled to hear someone explain this, like what happened, you know, a finding healing, because you can't go on without forgiveness. And when I read about this, and I heard these stories and like, think about all the reasons we all have to be angry with each other, your car alarm went off in the middle of the night woke me up, Your dog pooped on my alarm, you know, the things that used to me off. And you're among people who have had to overcome the loss of an entire family and a genocide. And if they find a way to move on and find meaning and create a nation out of this, so folks, what are we doing with our grief? And what are we doing with our loss? I hate to say it's a gift because it I feel so cheap saying that, but we're gonna have you with we are the survivors who move on, I think we have a responsibility to do something with it. Even if it's just amongst two siblings, who can then say, you know, what makes sure that we spend one holiday year together, it might be Fourth of July, it might be you know, Columbus Day, this year, it's Thanksgiving, like, we're gonna be intentional, to be intentional, because that brings healing. And I think it honors those who've gone beyond who who are and our, you know, our predecessors are those who have pre deceased us, and even all the way back into ancestors.

Brian Smith  51:36  
Absolutely 100% agree. And, you know, there's something I teach, called Positive Intelligence. And one of the things that we say is, every every situation presents a gift or an opportunity. And you can take that as a philosophical thing that says that everything in life is is meant to be and there's, there's some mystical forces, turning things into gifts and opportunities. That's one way to look at it. And I happen to actually kind of believe that, but the other way to look at it is, I can make this into a gift, or I can, I can, I can imbue this with meaning, it might not necessarily have any meaning, by itself, because meaning is what humans give to things, you know, it's like, the same situation could happen to you or me, you look at it one way, I look at it completely differently. So we're the ones that put meaning into things. And we could we could take, like the passing of a sister, and say, I'm going to use this to, you know, to enhance my other relationships, I'm going to, you know, looking at the richness of life, how it can be both things at once, you know, your book getting published, and your sister passing, and feeling all of those feelings and not dishonouring any of them.

Patricia Crisafulli  52:49  
We're, we're, we're multifaceted people. And you know, the most important thing we can do is, is I think is creating meaning. We did you know, my son is 29. And when he was little, you know, I tell them stories about things. I tell them stories about the grandmother, he didn't know they she passed before he was born. And when one time he was five, and he was coming out, I brought him home from kindergarten, and, or the after school program, because that was I was working on. And he stood on the back porch. And he turned up and he looked at a cloudy one. Hi, Grandma. Hi, grandma. Next day, same thing happened for three days. And third day I said, You say you're not a grandma and heaven, because, ya know, he never met her. And that he I said, you see her and he goes, No, he kind of have to look past the clouds. He did this with his hand. And he made meaning for himself. Now, of course, I've asked him now is 20 now and he's like, Yeah, and I remember that. And I think which means is code for I don't want to talk about that with you. But I saw that in telling him the story about, you know, the people that he didn't know, but they were in photographs he would see around the house. It created meaning for him. And he created his own little meaning experience. I I don't know, it didn't last more than a week. I don't know. But it was a profound moment to witness and to see, he had a moment of connection. He gave it to himself. You know, why not have that experience? I think people get afraid of people, which that's code for Tricia gets afraid. Okay, actually said I, right. Am I making this stuff up? Am I getting delusional, you know, am I looking for dimes and right, like, so. I mean, that's the one gift of being a fiction writer. It's like you're making stuff up anyway, and they pay you for it. Okay. But I mean, I'm being silly, but we heard our stories, and we have a lot of subjective experiences, right? Do people go to a party and they say it was wonderful was amazing. And I saw these folks and whatever somebody else's Are you kidding me that people on the corner were talking to me? Like we notice different things, it is subjective, we have a lens of life experience. So why not just claim it and just say, What meaning can I mine out of this moment, because it will sustain me. And in my storytelling, I, my and walk or interactive, I might be able to lift someone else up. And then their story continues. And as they listen to this, our conversation, we are each other's stories.

Brian Smith  55:36  
I want to talk for a moment about subjective versus objective, because that's something that I'm, it's been fascinated me lately, because again, I'm a scientist. And you know, so we discount the subjective in our society, oh, only you saw it, then it might or might not be true. But if two or more people see it, we call it objective, because two people witness the same thing. But as we just said, we can witness the same thing and have very different experiences from it. And I was reading this book, and the guy was talking about near death experiences. And he was making a case for why they are proof of the afterlife, and he used the word proof. And so people said, Well, I believe in science, and I'm like, Well, let's think about every even everything is science, its experiences is subjective. He's running an experiment, he is objectively recording it, you know, there are instruments, but he's got to read the instruments, nothing is nothing happens to us until happens in our consciousness. So ultimately, everything in our experience is subjective. And I think, again, I'm on a mission to stop dismissing things that are subjective, because that's all any of us knows, all you know, is your consciousness. All I know, is my consciousness.

Patricia Crisafulli  56:45  
If you and I decide to take a, you know, have a little take a look at the genome sequence, which, okay, that's about as far as I could get on genomic science is to say genomes, and we say, you know, what, this little hunk of the genome right here interests us, because we think it's all about are we left handed or right handed? Right? Okay, so we're gonna look at this genome right here at this little gene pair, and we're gonna do our scientific Houhai on that. Well, that choice, it doesn't mean our data is bad, or that our conclusion is wrong. But we've made a subjective choice to look at this part, right? Whatever we're doing. I mean, I was listening to what a wonderful novel I listened to on Audible, the time of our singing, which is amazing. And it's talking about science, and it's talking about experience and racial relationships over the 30s 40s 50s 60s, etc. And it's looking at this, this this, you know, this was an amazing book, this family. And there's the father is always these, the scientist, and he's looking at the proof, Einstein's proof wave particle theory, and he wants to look at life as a wave particle theory is or it isn't, it was or isn't right. And the everyone around him is like, there's the duality, including, you know, the good and evil and the duality. And I think this is where we kind of coexist. You know, that's the great thing about being a writer is, you know, I leave it to you scientists to worry about subjective and objective. And I think those lines kind of blur. But if it's my truth, and I believe it, and I always like to put the caveat isn't it's leading us someplace good, right, then my subjectivity can become my, I took this from somebody, little T truth, I don't know how many of us own the capital T truth. You know, you know, certain things, maybe we, you know, we believe in, you know, the dignity of all human beings. I think that's a capital T truth. But a lot of our personal truths are little T truth. And this, this is how I see it, and this is how you see it. And together, we get enough of those together. And we find a whole lot of commonality here. And I think that's where the data set builds and our subjectivity. And we say, there's something going on here, human beings have been honoring their dead, certain, the great apes, the have, you know, they find they they, the, the silverback gorillas of Rwanda, they will you know, when when the elder passes, they'll sit with that body until they know that it's not going to wake up I mean, there's there's a there's a cognition of of here and now we know elephant mothers grieve the loss of their babies forever. This is and that is that is counter survival of a species you know, better to kind of like go right waterhole food source. But no, we are encoded. So there is a lot there's something is here and then out here, something was animated and not that energy, that thing, that spirit, that soul, whatever, you know, these are things that can pull us into that mystery. But enough of us have that little T Subjective Truth that we have a data set that clearly points us to something that's objective, as you say, it's proof.

Brian Smith  1:00:20  
Yeah, I think so I think absolutely. So and I said, I think you touched on something that I say all the time, too, it's like for all of mankind's history. For the last however many, hundreds of years or 1000s of years and millions of years, there's been mankind, we have been spiritual beings, we have understood that our loved ones are in the next world, they're, you know, in some, some societies, it's almost like they've just moved to the next room. And then only the last couple 100 years, has man said, now that's not true. We're just biological accidents, and we die, it's over. And I think that's where we've really lost and and I love the, you know, with your, with the mystery that you're talking about, and the and the finding and the seeking, and that's what's great about mysteries, is it, they keep us engaged and keep us asking questions that keep us moving forward. Whereas I think science is kind of closed the door and that whole thing, or had the doors being blown open again, now because as you're studying consciousness, or like, we don't understand what consciousness is, we don't understand, we don't understand this double slit experiment, we don't understand why sometimes White looks like a particle. And sometimes we don't, we don't get it. Because they're realizing there's more than we can understand from that material perspective.

Patricia Crisafulli  1:01:36  
And that's, and that why I mean, it pulls us it just pulls us into some bigger thing, some bigger truth. And well, I don't know, we're ever going to get there, maybe not in this world. But it pulls us up into accepting that we are spiritual beings, how uplifting is that? To know that I am not just defined by my stuff, right? Or lack of stuff, or, you know, you know what I do, that I that my life has value simply because I am here, it and the same is true for every other person on this planet, that we are here. And that's all that really matters. Fundamentally, that's the ticket to admission you are here. We're so glad we're all here, coexisting, and this time.

Brian Smith  1:02:36  
So Trisha, let's talk about let's talk about your book. Because I think, again, as we as we've had this conversation is I don't I don't read a lot of fiction, but I do love movies, right? So I love I love stories. I love mysteries. I just watched a great mystery not to lie to them. So tell me about your book. And

Patricia Crisafulli  1:02:55  
oh, you're very kind. So the secrets of Anita Harbor, I set it in a fictionalized version of my hometown in Northern New York State. The shores of Lake Ontario, and it is about my favorite subject. And you won't be surprised at the themes of mine mysteries is the intersection of the ordinary and the extraordinary. So my characters go along in daily life and something happens, you know, and then today, kind of the thing that then today is my protagonist. The first book is called the secrets of Onida harbor. It came out last fall. It is my protagonist is Gabriella Domenici, she's had worked in the New York Public Library and Archives and documents. She had this wonderful life back in the city. And she got divorced. She's a single mom couldn't afford to stay the city. Her mom got sick. She's an only child and had to come home to her hometown. Defeat, defeat, defeat, defeat, and now she's 40. And now she's saying to herself, I gotta get back there where my real life is. That's kind of the backstory. And then one day, insult to injury as she's working in this circulation department of a her hometown library. It's the best job she can get. There's a rummage sale. So now, instead of handling the poetry of Emily Dickinson or wealth, Ralph Waldo Emerson is letters and archives and documents. She's looking at chips, salt and pepper shakers on the on the, you know, on the second hand table, except someone has donated something to the rummage sale anonymously. That looks like a tchotchke. It's a little tiny cross colorful tiles on the front of it. And she dismisses it as one of those things you buy in a museum gift shop, you know, kind of nice replica of a replica of a replica, except it turns out to have been the real thing. So what unfolds is what is this thing? Spoiler alert, it's a medieval artifact. Why is it here and why? The first person who saw it in the rummage sale is found floating in the harbor. So there's a, there's the mystery of the artifact, right? And then there's the who done it in a small town as is, as the bodies kind of pile up on the library lawn. So the ordinary and Gabriella is caught in the middle of it and has to go through everything we just talked about objective and subjective. And and what is the truth? And where are the clues? And what is this thing? And is there a danger? And who is this and of course, surprised at the end? Couple of times over? Why ordinary and extraordinary, because I think it's a metaphor for the rest of us that we have those extraordinary moments. And each of my books in this series, the second one will come out this fall has an artifact something lost in time. It's they're fictionalized but they're grounded in truth is it's a thing. It's an inanimate object, but it kind of almost wants to be found. There inevitably misplace missed misidentified Miss misappropriated in one case, and and that uncovering that story from the past brings it into the present with new meaning. So the secrets of Bonita harbor is about the you know, the whodunit of the the people who are murdered in the murder mystery, right? The through line is the artifact that seems to have I want to say a presence, but it's it evokes in people, some pretty complex emotions from avarice and greed, because somebody clearly wants this thing to fear, even religiosity I mean, there's, there's a kind, there's a host of, of interactions. So it's many, many layers. There's it's a mystery within a mystery in a lot of ways as as his book two and then Book Three, which I'm currently finishing on. Getting ready the second draft.

Brian Smith  1:07:04  
Yeah, awesome. I love that. Because, as you said, they're there. When we read, when we when it's good fiction, there's always truth behind it, even though like you said, the story changes that the details change, but there's that that's an overarching thing of like, the the mystery, the lost the found. And that's life. But you just said, the blend of the extraordinary and, and the ordinary. And the more we open our eyes to that, the more I've there's Einstein quote, he says you can live life as either everything's a miracle or nothing is a miracle. And when you start to really open your eyes to that, then you realize everything is a miracle. It's all miraculous. It's all extraordinary. And that what we call the the Beyond and the afterlife. And paranormal is just what we don't understand yet. It's it's really all. It's all part of our daily lives and our loved ones, your sister, Bernadette and my my daughter, there's still here with us. And it's not just in my opinion, not just in our memories, they're still here with this. There's still I love what you said earlier, I'm going to take that from you that they're really in the chorus, maybe off stage, but there's still part of the still part of the process.

Patricia Crisafulli  1:08:20  
Yeah. And I think I think we know that at our core. I think it's sometimes it's scary. Because it there's part of it's kind of like they don't show up on demand. Like why I don't know, maybe they're just I know, I there's times when my dad has been like, I've been my mom, like I feel I'm like right here all the time. So I'm like, did you go on vacation? You know, I feel more than distant? Maybe that's me. Maybe that's them? Maybe it's just though, I guess we'll figure it out our way our own little wave particle theory, you know, yeah. And maybe they're on the wave mode, right? But but here's the thing, I have to remind myself that we're on linear time and they're outside of time. So they're the now and the now and the now and the now and the now and the more we kind of see that in our own lives. It's now folks like what happened here? Then I can I can put more intentionality into finding that connection. And maybe it doesn't have to be an A rainbow 24/7 or a dime 24/7 Maybe it's just the stepping stones along the path and in the gaps. We are reminded to live right right. Because if I look if I spend my day doing nothing but dimes and rainbows well then I I'm not living

Brian Smith  1:09:43  
exactly and I think you just answered the question. I was just work with the client couple days ago when she asked me this questions like you know why why can't they be more involved? Why don't we get signs all the time and I I made up some answers right there. They're educated guesses. I'm like I think part of it is, we live in a very dense environment, the energy here is totally different. So it is more difficult to get things done because in the afterlife it's you do you think things and they happen here it's not the same. But the other thing is, I was telling her because she and I have had a lot of discussions about Star Trek I said, there's there's the prime directive in Star Trek, you can't interfere with the course of the natives lives, right? You can't introduce them technology, it's going to change your lives. You can't give them knowledge that's going to change their lives. And I think we come here, we're meant to live in the mundane. We're meant to go through the difficulties we've got the remit to, to do our taxes and all the crap that we're doing, it's part of the process. So they're not, they're not here to take all that away from us. Just like when you said you have children, I have children. We can't do everything for our children, right? We look at them as parents, we're like, that's a lesson you got to learn on your own. So I am here if you want help, I'm here to advise you if you need advice, but you've got to learn some things on your own. And that's part of being human.

Patricia Crisafulli  1:11:02  
Right and what what they know is never changing is that you know, I love you and I'm here for you. Yeah, but you know, in the gaps of when those questions get asked and the older they get to them as they go up wider is that's when living happens.

Brian Smith  1:11:19  
You know exactly what Patricia are. Remind people I want to spell your book because we've been saying Anita harbor people that might not have spell it. So it's the secrets of Anita Oh, H nit a harbor and where is it available?

Patricia Crisafulli  1:11:33  
Everywhere. It's online. It's in your your favorite bookstore doesn't have it? They can order it for you. I am big on independent bookstores or obviously, you know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. It's there it's an audio it's on ebook and it's in print paperback. So, enjoy.

Brian Smith  1:11:52  
And are you open to people contacting you? Can they contact you through your

Patricia Crisafulli  1:11:55  
website? Yes, they can. They can. I have a website called Faith FAI T H hope. H O P E and A N D fiction fic t i o n.com. Faith, Hope and fiction.com You can find me?

Brian Smith  1:12:10  
Yeah, it's been great getting to know you. Thanks for doing this today.

Patricia Crisafulli  1:12:13  
Oh, thank you. This has been wonderful. I have so enjoyed it. I really feel uplifted. All right, enjoy

Brian Smith  1:12:20  
the rest of your day. You too. Thank you. I'm excited to not have a great new resource. It's called gems, four steps to move from grief to joy. And what it is it's four things that I've found that I do on a daily basis to help me to navigate my grief. And I'm offering it to you free of charge. It's a free download. Just go to my website, www dot grief to growth.com/gems G m s and grab it there for free. I hope you enjoy it.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai