Transcript
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Hey everybody, this is Brian.
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Welcome back to another enlightening episode of the Grief to Gross podcast, where we talk about the transformative journey of the human spirit.
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As I said, I'm your host, Brian.
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Today we have an extraordinary guest whose life experiences echo the essence of transformation, of resilience and of compassion.
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Please welcome Matthew Brackett.
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He's an executive leadership coach, a diversity and inclusion trainer and a resiliency expert and advisor.
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His journey began in the small, close communities in New England, in a New England town, and propelled him to international service in various forums.
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He's lived all over the world and done some really fast any things.
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Matthew comes from a large family of 13, which is a household that served as the initial classroom for his for his life's wisdom.
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Today we're going to touch on many topics.
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Some of the things I want to explore with him are the cornerstones that give our lives shape and depth, how change and crisis are integral to our human journey, the transformative power of pain and the value of sharing your experience with others.
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Up We'll talk, we'll explore Matthew's insights and then navigate in the complex territories of self-hatred and depression.
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We'll discuss the importance of practicing compassion and empathy in a world that often lacks both If you're finding yourself standing at the crossroads of indecision, or we often call sliding, or what Matthew calls sliding, not deciding.
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We're going to talk about that.
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We're going to talk about why self-awareness and emotional intelligence can be your compass, and if you've ever wondered about the purpose of life's challenges and crisis, today, I think we'll offer you some insight into that.
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Matthew has served in various capacities, first through religious ministry in countries like Italy, Ireland, England, Colombia, Chile and Mexico, and later he was a staff officer in Chaplin in the US Navy.
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So he brings a rich tapestry of experiences to our conversation today, and his life's mission has been steeped in the commitment to facilitate human development and growth.
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So with that, I want to welcome to Grief, to Growth Matthew Brackett.
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Thank you very much, Brian.
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Great, so great to be here to talk about all these different topics, very topics that are part and parcel of our human experience but oftentimes difficult to talk about.
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Yeah, that's kind of what we do here.
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We don't cover the easy stuff.
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We like to jump right in and talk about the things that shape our lives.
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So, my first question for you.
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You came from a small town in New England and now you're an international figure in leadership, coaching and resilience, so was there a pivotal moment that sets you on this path, or to explore pain and grief?
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Oh well, there's some lot there in that question.
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Yeah, yeah small town in New England, as you mentioned and I appreciate that you mentioned that my family was the first classroom where you learn about life and being a big family.
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A large family learn about generosity, about service, about sharing, about community.
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And then I suppose why I went into as I look back on my story, why I went into formal ministry, I think part of it was looking for something, but part of it was also running away from other stuff, probably not the greatest motivations to do what I did, but they were what they were and I don't regret it.
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It's brought me to who I am now.
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But I think part of it was, you know, running away from small town, new England, from you know I just, and where I just applied and find myself in growing up and this I suppose, growing up in a large family, you can get a little bit lost in the mix unintentionally, but this is just that's sort of what my experience was.
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So I it was sort of.
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Then I went on journey but I got to find myself and I wanted to do something important, you know, growing up in a faith based family, and I wanted to do something transcendental, something that had a lasting impression, not only in time, but also in eternity.
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Right, I wanted to do something meaningful for people and to serve and that's something that you talk about in some of your podcasts is really to the beauty of service and generosity and giving.
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And I suppose that's what led me then to formal ministry and then, after a period of, after a few decades, realizing that it wasn't the right place.
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Some people like, well, it took you long time to figure that out, but I guess we live our life to the answers and I suppose there were years when I didn't my resisted, I didn't want to.
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You know, look at the obvious.
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Maybe that's why I just tried to make it work, and so that led me to I mean, going back to your question about why do I do?
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I do what I do, know, because I'm very passionate about the human person.
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I'm passionate and in love with the beautiful complexities of our human experience.
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And why leadership?
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Because leadership, the use of leadership, the use of authority, the use of power, the use of influences, will always, always has been and will always be part of our human experience.
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And when it's done in a healthy, wholesome way, it's very life giving.
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And when it's done a non healthy way or or a dysfunctional way it can be, can be very destructive to who we are as human beings.
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And when that happens in faith based organizations or when that happens in family, the destruction touches deeper fibers of us, of who we are as human beings.
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So it's part of the human experience and I think I think there's a we're always as human beings, we're always going through crisis.
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So the crisis of leadership and crisis of authority in around at least the, the Western world I can't speak to other parts of the world and and I think there's just so much to do and when I speak about leadership, I speak about this holistic approach, sort of how I, first and foremost, how I lead myself and this is sort of where our topic fits in and then how I lead in my inner circles of influence, whether it be relationships, family, and then how I lead in professional and professionally and how I lead in organizational contexts.
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All of those have sort of different aspects, the sort of different perspectives of what leadership is.
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So that's why I do what I do.
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That's the approach and why grief, I think.
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But part of it is I've walked.
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I've been really fortunate not fortunate to see people go through grief, but fortunate to be invited into that sacred space of people's lives, of people's pain.
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When we're in ministry, we oftentimes we share the the highest highs and the lowest lows, and so to step into that space to walk with those, to walk with many people, was a very meaningful place to be and to experience our human sensitivity, fragility and you know, and all the things that, everything that we can go through when we go through grief.
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And then in my own personal life, I can't say that I've had very significant losses as regards to, you know, as regards death.
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So often we think about grief, we think about death, but, as we'll get into this, so many other types of losses that we can go through through beings, and the process ends up being very similar because, whatever it is, something was ripped away from us or we slowly lost something and it leaves a hole, a wound or whatever we want to call it.
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And so then, how do we reconcile, how do we integrate without covering that up, and how do we honor that hole or that space or that wound and find meaning in continuing to go forward?
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That's the great challenge of all this.
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So, in my own, in my own personal life, I was one of the I suppose one of the losses was was going through what I go as taking, having to confront my life and make the decision around leaving ministry, because there's a whole thing around identity, around expectations, around the way I thought and sort of hoped things would be, and where that is no longer, there's no longer there and I have to recalibrate, reconsider, put everything on the table and make decisions that are very difficult and there's and there's losses that come with that decision.
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Of course, there's always.
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There's so many gains as well and that's why I don't regret where I'm at and the decisions that I've made.
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Maybe some regrets around how I some decisions I made going through life, but who doesn't have those?
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Right.
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But trying to do our best to make it all right and then it makes sense, and to make it meaningful.
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I would imagine, as you said, I love you talked about the fact that grief isn't only around death, it's around any type of loss, and some people might be going well, is it really a loss if you made the decision to leave the ministry?
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Right, this was your choice, but there's still, as you said, there's that the giving up of the identity, and I think, especially in something like a ministry, where you feel like it's a calling.
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So I can imagine that was a painful process for you.
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Yes, now, definitely it's.
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I think it's a loss of identity.
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You know, identity is really important for us as human beings and oftentimes, naturally, we look for identity outside of us, not the most, not the healthiest way to find our identity, but something that we do as human beings.
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You know, and I became part of organizations that had a very strong identity you know and you know where you wear a uniform, whether it be in the, in the in the Navy, or whether it be in priesthood, you know and so, and then you have titles and there's very clear hierarchy and so that becomes a play.
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We find security in that, but then when that's taken away, you're, we're left sort of swirling and trying to figure things out.
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You know, sometimes as grief the one way of explaining grief is the unfinished hurt that is swirling around in the spirit, you know, and trying to understand it better, make sense of it and really and to discover ourselves in the process.
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And when, you know, when we face pain, when we face crisis, when we face grief, oftentimes where we want to silence the pain because pain is not comfortable for us as human beings.
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So there's something in us that we know that you know pain is sort of the pain and discomfort.
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We know that, that you know no pain, no gain, whatever, whatever.
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You know all those different phrases that you know we go to the gym, we experience pain, but because there's a goal, you know.
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So pain is something that is hard for us, sort of like that.
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It's just a conflictive sort of topic for us humans, where we we know it's important and that the someone's value and so much wisdom in it, but at the same time, we don't like it and so we try to avoid it, and that can happen oftentimes with grief, and I think I did that.
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Having to face my own decisions, I shut.
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I shut that down, that part down for a while, because I didn't want to have to make those difficult decisions, sure sure I so I could.
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Being in the being in a faith-based organization, being being in the ministry, being the priesthood, being in chaplain and seeing people go through pain.
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You must have gotten this question thousands of times why?
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Why would God allow this?
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Why did this happen to me?
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How do you answer that question?
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Yes, the perennial problem of pain.
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So many people have written about it, you know, going back to just the ancient authors of Greece and Rome and all that.
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So, and it's just gone on.
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It's sort of, and it's the problem that every generation asks itself, and whether it be from the human perspective or the, you know in the faith, why, if you know all this thing, that if God is so good.
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So there's a few ways that I answer it, and I do.
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I want to begin saying this is a phrase that I really want to knock this out early on in this conversation.
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There's a phrase that says everything happens for a reason, which you know in working with the means and you know the sort of all these free, very easy phrases that we use, that when we go deeper or when we use them in the wrong moments, they're very offensive or hurtful.
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Not everything happens for a reason, or a lot of things can happen for very, just, very bad reasons, or you know bad or poor decisions of others and I'll get to the answer in your question in a second.
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But I think that the challenge of us in the I think that in the beauty of the human spirit, is that we will never be able to say that this thing happened for a reason.
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But we can find the reason to keep on going and we can find meaning in overcoming what has happened or in integrating or in reconciling or in allowing that to offer me some momentum to get to a new place in life.
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But we have to be very careful and you know, just using that phrase with people as a sort of a, as a very lazy consolation, consolation phrase, no, not, you can't.
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You can't say that to someone that's lost a loved one in an accident you know, go ahead by a drunk driver, killed by a drunk driver.
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You can't say that.
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Someone who's been abused either emotionally, psychologically, sexually, you can't say that.
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You know, sitting with a Marine who's lost his brother, you know, in a gang fight, you know, when he was holding his brother as he had gotten shot and he dies in his arms.
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You can't say that everything happens for a reason.
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But the greatness of the human spirit is to find reason to keep going.
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You know, and I think in your story, if you have a daughter, you know, and that has no longer with you, but you speak about her in the present because she is with you, but again it's.
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We can't say that all that happens for a reason when you go through that.
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But then, but to find meaning and purpose in, in the tragedy is, I think, something very beautiful in the human spirit.
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No, no, now let's get back to your answering your question.
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So how do I answer that question about God?
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You know God is so good.
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Why did bad things happen to good people?
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Or the problem of pain?
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The way I, I mean, the way I look at it is, first of all, it's very oversimplification.
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Right, god gave all of us the gift of free will.
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He gave us intelligence and he gave us free will, and we can use that free will for good and also for bad.
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And it's, I think, that the greatness and the beauty of the human spirit is that a human that freely decides to love and to do good, something so beautiful.
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If we didn't have free will, we couldn't do that.
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Now, what's the downside, what's the shadow side of having free will?
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Is that we suffer the consequences of bad decisions or evil decisions, of a very bad use of free will of others.
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And so we could say, well, god is almighty and God is all powerful.
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Why doesn't he?
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Well, because, precisely because, yes, he is God, but that would take away our free will.
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If God, you know, inserted himself in the way he created laws of nature, god created laws of the universe, god created laws that we have as human beings, and so God is respectful and we, I think we want to have a God that is very respectful of us, respectful of our space, and that God won't interject himself, and so that's how I so it's really not.
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It's not that God allows or sends us pain, or that God allows us intentionally to go through pain.
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It's not that God allows us to exercise our free human will.
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There are so many wonderful, great things, but sadly we also use it in a very poor and destructive way.
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We have to benefit from the goodness and suffer the consequences really bad.
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Yeah, and I didn't mean to put you in the spot with that question, but it's one that we get when people come to us, when they're in grief and they're in pain.
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Often that's the point where people's faith fails them, frankly, because they've been taught this very simplistic view of God.
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God's like the Santa Claus God If you do good things, then God gives you good things, and if you do bad things, then God gives you bad things.
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But what happens when I do good things and then bad things happen?
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That doesn't line up with that type of faith.
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Yes, and then when something bad happens, then of course you have a great, there's anger, there's a great rejection, and then the very negative side of teaching faith like that is overly simplistic, as you well said, and it doesn't really serve people in the long run in the bigger picture of life, because then something bad happens and you don't know how, what to do with it, and then it creates anger, creates rejection of God.
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How many people this is often spoken about how many people, because of just the poor way of we teach our faith, how many people have rejected God?
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In other words, the opposite of what we look for in organized religion.
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We've, by poorly managed the teaching of faith and the dealing with people, we've created the opposite reaction that really we're looking for, and that's tragic, that's very sad.
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It is very sad and, speaking of religion, we're kind of going off of what we were planning to talk about today, but I think it's really important this time we're going through, we're recording this in October of 2023, when Hamas is, just in the name of religion, attacked and murdered and tortured and unspeakable things to Jews.
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And we see I saw someone post the other day the Holy Land is supposed to be peaceful and it's the most violent place on earth.
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So it's really hard to reconcile that with what we teach God supposed to be.
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It is.
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When people look at that, when people look at so much violence in the name of religion and so much harm, whether it be in any type of denomination, and it creates a lot of conflict in the human mind like this is a huge contradiction.
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This is not making sense and that's why I think nowadays in the younger generations there's a huge rejection towards organized religion and there's this typical phrase a lot of people use on spiritual but not religious.
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I use the words interchangeably.
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For me I think the human person is, as anthropologically we are, religious beings.
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In other words, we tend towards something bigger than us, where we are transcendent beings.
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So I think that people use them.
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I think we are religious and we are spiritual and I use those two words interchangeably because there's something in us that longs for something more that's transcendent.
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But then there's a rejection towards organized religion Because of the contradictions and hurt and harm that is found in organizations.
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It's the human side, but again it's sad because it doesn't reflect good on really the truth of who God is.
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Yeah, well, the distinction you made, or you said.
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You use the words interchangeably, and I think what people are saying when they say I'm spiritual but not religious is they are rejecting that, as you said, that organized aspect of it that divides us, that says that Muslims and Jews should hate each other, which is just the most ridiculous thing ever and goes so much against what God is.
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And I was just on a board the other day and we were talking about religion and someone said okay, when people have near-death experiences, what is the one true religion?
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People always want to know what's the right one.
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And I made the comment when Jesus wasn't a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew.
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And this guy goes oh, jesus was a Muslim.
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And I'm like okay, so 500 years before, before Muhammad, jesus was a Muslim.
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But it's really interesting how we tend to divide ourselves up over a concept that should bring us together.
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We do as human beings.
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We want a sense of belonging.
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And then there's something in our psychology, human beings, that when we become part of something, then we want a tight-knit group and it's like it's us against them and sadly that happens.
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And then there's a lot of any religious group has some extreme party or group that goes to the extreme, and we see this in Islam, we see this in the Jews, we see this in the Catholics, we have this in a lot of Christian.
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You said you were part of a fundamentalist group.
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We see it everywhere and sadly, I think it has its roots in, obviously, in ideologies, but also has its roots in some charismatic figures.
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And this is where we get into one aspect of leadership is the certain human beings and it's so interesting that have this, I don't know sort of this magnetism, this sort of charisma about them and it just brings people toward them and then, and they use it in a very harmful way.
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And charisma oftentimes I don't say always, but oftentimes if not kept in check, it's oftentimes it's linked to some sort of personality disorder.
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And that's why it's dangerous when you because when you have charisma, then in the people give you so much power, you know, in these extreme groups, and then that power is used eventually against you psychologically, mentally, spiritually, sometimes sexually.
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Yeah, that's really interesting observation, you know, because it does seem like a lot of times these, you know it's I guess it's a chicken or egg thing I'm thinking about.
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It's like, do they rise that level because they have a personality disorder, or is it because of the attention that they get and the power that corrupts them?
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And you know why are people attracted to that?
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It's really interesting, it's very fascinating to me it is.
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That's probably a topic for another day, but yeah it is interesting.
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So when it comes to leadership, I mean, do you help people recognize that in themselves and keep it in check, because it is a problem, I think, in all kinds of organizations, and we mentioned earlier, it's not just political, it's in corporations, it's in families, even.
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It is, yeah, it's in families, it's in corporations and organizations, it's everywhere, because it's part of just who we are as humans.
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And now this you tell me how much we want to go into that, I think, just a simple answer.
00:23:09.487 --> 00:23:14.366
Can you rephrase the question?
00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:22.465
Well, I think you know, as we come into leadership roles, how do we recognize that in ourselves, keep ourselves in check?
00:23:22.465 --> 00:23:24.304
I think about even in the church.
00:23:24.304 --> 00:23:31.528
You know, in the church not my particular church, but in the church a lot of times, pastors, they go crazy.
00:23:32.510 --> 00:23:34.806
Yes, so I think, in keeping it in check.
00:23:35.106 --> 00:23:42.067
Sadly, I think people that have these tendencies are not interested or disposed to work on themselves.
00:23:45.721 --> 00:23:52.847
So that's the sad thing, because, again, it is about creating this awareness right and a lot of the work that I do around.
00:23:52.969 --> 00:24:14.212
There's two types of certain, you know, around individual coaching accompaniment is a so-called, because it forces people to slow down in their life and to pay attention to what's going on inside of it, to pay attention to intentions, pay attention to motivations, pay attention to values, to needs, all these other things you know, in the shed light on a lot of the blind spots, and so that's one.
00:24:14.212 --> 00:24:26.308
And then the other thing is offering conferences, workshops, things that help, you know, in a group setting, to also offer education and to create areas of personal reflection throughout some of these things.
00:24:26.308 --> 00:24:46.413
And, sadly, when people you know, people that are might have these some sort of personality disorders, you know, and charisma and power all linked together, might not, there's a lot of blindness and so the and I think, in inability and unwillingness to look at certain things.
00:24:46.413 --> 00:24:58.367
So how much you can do, but it's interesting, as you said, how people like that and gain so much power and are given so much power by human beings.
00:24:59.305 --> 00:25:13.988
It's, I think we all look for people to look up to and we look for people to lead us in a meaningful direction, and so and that's, I think that's why this happens and we get easily.
00:25:13.988 --> 00:25:22.714
It can get wrapped up into someone's, into that net, that web, Because it looks, it's always painted as a good thing.
00:25:24.444 --> 00:25:25.490
Yeah, well, you're right.
00:25:25.490 --> 00:25:30.272
We tend to want to put our power in someone that says they're gonna take care of us.
00:25:30.272 --> 00:25:31.869
You know, someone's gonna.
00:25:31.869 --> 00:25:34.613
They're gonna be our savior, for lack of a better word.
00:25:34.613 --> 00:25:37.873
So we give our authority away.
00:25:37.873 --> 00:25:40.832
I do want to kind of switching gears.
00:25:40.832 --> 00:25:43.692
Go back to because you mentioned in your bio.
00:25:43.692 --> 00:25:44.453
We talked about a little bit.
00:25:44.453 --> 00:25:48.955
You grew up in a family of 13, in a small town, I guess.
00:25:48.955 --> 00:25:50.630
What was that like?
00:25:50.630 --> 00:25:55.613
And how does your role in that family organization, how does that shape to who you are?
00:25:56.984 --> 00:25:58.109
I was the 10th of 13.
00:25:58.109 --> 00:25:58.906
We've since.
00:25:58.906 --> 00:26:03.388
Both of my parents have died my mother died in 2013,.
00:26:03.388 --> 00:26:05.275
My dad died in 2021.
00:26:05.275 --> 00:26:17.906
So, being the 10th being on the younger side, you're raised by your older siblings in certain ways right and.
00:26:18.067 --> 00:26:20.186
I think, it's just, it becomes community, it becomes.
00:26:20.186 --> 00:26:26.971
Our home was, and my parents were very intentional about making our home a place, sort of a playground, a discovery land.
00:26:26.971 --> 00:26:28.006
You know.
00:26:28.006 --> 00:26:46.134
They got a few acres and had a house and bought animals and this and their idea was let's make this a place where all of our, your relatives and friends, want to come, rather than our children always looking elsewhere to find the entertainment and where to spend their time.
00:26:46.545 --> 00:26:51.409
We also worked from a very young age and back in those days that was just the normal thing to do.
00:26:51.409 --> 00:27:01.192
At eight or nine, my mother, we got us jobs at strawberry fields or at orchards or wherever, also cutting grass, shoveling snow, all the normal stuff.
00:27:01.192 --> 00:27:08.952
Teaching us to again, as you said, as a school, as a classroom, to learn about life, learn work ethic, learn responsibility.
00:27:08.952 --> 00:27:37.653
My parents got animals, not because we really had a farm or lived on a farm, but it was all about teaching the children how to be responsible and to take care of things, and so, as early morning before going to school, walking through the snow, changing the water for the chickens, bringing in the ice to frost the everything and filling it with fresh water and bringing it out, and then doing the same thing in the afternoon after school during the winter.
00:27:37.653 --> 00:27:39.109
All that was just part of.
00:27:39.545 --> 00:27:45.794
My parents were very intentional about what they were trying to do with us, so there's a great beauty in that.
00:27:45.794 --> 00:27:54.589
We never lacked anything, but we also never had any luxuries and trips or vacations or things like that it was.
00:27:54.589 --> 00:27:54.851
I think.
00:27:54.851 --> 00:28:05.650
I suppose the downside, if we're gonna talk about it, is every big family is different and every personality is different, so I think sometimes people maybe get I feel like you're getting lost in the mix.
00:28:05.650 --> 00:28:14.565
My parents grew up in the depression and also grew up in families where they didn't receive a lot of affection and the emotional side.
00:28:14.565 --> 00:28:17.069
I think generations have changed as regards emotions and all that.
00:28:17.069 --> 00:28:22.472
My parents were very distant and I think we experienced that and that had different consequences on children.
00:28:22.472 --> 00:28:25.411
So that's the short answer to that question.
00:28:25.664 --> 00:28:35.431
Yeah, well, I appreciate you sharing that and because out of our lives, I think everybody's life is interesting and in different ways.
00:28:35.431 --> 00:28:39.851
And we talked earlier about like, do things happen for a reason?
00:28:39.851 --> 00:28:46.710
And that is certainly debatable, but we can always find reason or we can find meaning in it.
00:28:46.710 --> 00:28:54.392
And a lot of times those things in our early life they do drive us, even though sometimes we might not realize to later how they've driven us.
00:28:54.392 --> 00:29:05.354
And to be a person who's lived, I mean you've lived all over the world, I mean literally many different cultures and you were living this great life of service.
00:29:05.354 --> 00:29:09.392
So it's always interesting to get to know someone's background and maybe how that influenced them.
00:29:10.704 --> 00:29:24.292
Sure, no, it definitely does influence us and I think as adults, we also come into terms with certain things, reconciling certain things about our past it's not about a lot of us can raise a lot of us because of who we are as human beings.
00:29:24.292 --> 00:29:26.707
We can shift to the blame mode, pointing fingers.
00:29:26.707 --> 00:29:30.868
I have all these problems because of this person, that person, that event.
00:29:30.868 --> 00:29:36.211
Yes, but we don't gain a lot from just playing the blame game.
00:29:36.211 --> 00:29:43.007
It's natural that we do that as human beings, but in the end we have to take responsibility for our lives, yeah, for where I'm at.
00:29:43.509 --> 00:29:46.211
Well, we talked earlier and I think it might have been before we started recording.
00:29:46.211 --> 00:30:13.692
You mentioned like we both have religious backgrounds and religion can harm us sometimes, but I believe usually it's unintentional, whether it's coming from our parents or even from some of the religiously like we talked there are some crazy leaders in some churches but that we can choose whether we wanna play that blame game or whether we wanna learn and grow from it.
00:30:13.692 --> 00:30:24.191
And obviously you've chosen the latter, that's, and you're helping other people to develop, to reach their potential.
00:30:24.191 --> 00:30:26.088
So I think that's a fantastic thing.
00:30:26.911 --> 00:30:27.773
Thank you, I have tried.
00:30:27.773 --> 00:30:37.795
There doesn't mean doesn't mean I have those moments where where I go into victim mode or I can point fingers and feel bad about myself.
00:30:37.795 --> 00:30:41.435
But yes, but it's working through that and I think it's also.
00:30:41.435 --> 00:30:49.467
This has a lot, so much to do with the work that you do around grief, you know, around whatever the loss is, fact is.
00:30:49.467 --> 00:30:50.932
Now I'm experiencing it.
00:30:50.932 --> 00:30:52.130
Now what do I do?