What My Mother's Deathbed Visions Taught Me About What Comes Next | Alexandra Grabbe | EP 503

Close your eyes and imagine. What if the things in life that caused us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges. Challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried, but what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth, and I am your host, Brian Smith. Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth. I'm Brian Smith, and if you're new here, this show exists because I believe that what feels like the end is rarely the whole story. We explore grief, loss, consciousness, and the deep questions that don't have easy answers. Things like what happens when someone we love dies. Is the connection broken, or does it just change form? And how do we keep living fully and purposefully in the face of it all? Now, if that resonates with you, I think you're in the right place today. My guest today is Alexandra Grabay. She's lived many lives. She's been a talk show host in Paris, a green innkeeper on Cape Cod, and through it all, a forever writer. She greeted listeners each evening with Good Evening Paris. She brought American music to French audiences, assistant literary legends, Barbara Chase-Ribault and Marge Piercy, and built a green bed and breakfast, bed and breakfast, and won Cape Cod's most beloved towns. But it was a chapter she didn't choose, the one where she became her mother's caregiver, that led her to write what may be her most important work. Her book is called Seeing Joy, a story of life, death, and what comes next. And it's a home care memoir published by Kohler Books in March of this year, 2026. It's the story of Bea, feisty, brilliant, and fiercely alive at 96, and a daughter who moved home to care for her. What began as a caregiving blog, written during her mother's final months, became something neither Alexandra nor her readers expected. A portion of what it looks like when death draws close and the veil between the world starts to thin. Deceased friends and family began visiting Bea's room. Tea parties were hosted with invisible guests. A woman who had declared that she didn't want to die and that nothing comes next began opening up to something she hadn't anticipated. So in our conversation today, we're going to talk about what it costs to step into the role of caregiver, what it gives back, and what it does to your understanding of death when you've watched it arrive slowly, up close, and with moments of unexpected grace. We'll look at the spiritual strangeness that can often accompany the end of life, why our culture actually runs from these conversations, and what the title of Alexandra's book is promising. If you ever sat beside someone you love as they were moving on, or if you're the one who knows that chapter is coming and you don't feel ready for this episode for you. So with that, let's welcome Alexandra Grabay to Grief to Growth. Well, thank you, Brian. What a lovely introduction. Yeah, I'm really excited to have you here today. Thank you for doing this. Oh, I'm delighted to be here. So you've lived a very interesting life before you were, you know, the caregiver for your mother. So tell us a little bit more about your background. Well, I got married very young and went to live in France, in Paris. And I had three children there, raised three children in France. And then I moved back to, well, my parents were living on Cape Cod, so I came every summer. But I eventually moved back, it took me, I think, 10 more years, I'd come back every year, so that I didn't lose touch with the United States. And I was divorced and I married my Swedish husband, who is still with us. He's in living in Sweden now. So I go back and forth to see him. He's just actually, it was his birthday on Saturday. So he just reached the grand old age of 89. So I tell him next year, it's 90. Wow. Congratulations. Happy birthday to him. Yes, I will tell him. I will tell him. And so then in 97, we got married in 97. And moved back to, well, I moved back to the United States. For him, it was a big adventure because he had never been to the United States. And we moved into a cottage on my parents' property in Wellfleet, which is a wonderful, wonderful place to live. And my dad was still going strong and he was 95 when we moved back. And gradually he declined and he passed away of a stroke. But my mom was still with us and she would be going to seminars at the Wellfleet Public Library and, you know, she and she loved going out to dinner with us. And so, you know, she she had a very good life at the end of her time here with us. And things got more complicated after she had bursitis, which took place in March of 2006. And fortunately for me, as her caregiver, her doctor recommended hospice. So we had hospice and I knew nothing about hospice. I thought it was for people who basically had cancer and were terminally ill. But it turns out that she had hospice for seven months. And I was told that usually hospice is like one to six months. But in her case, she didn't want to die and she was determined to stay alive. She because of the bursitis, she was limited in her ability to do things and basically bedridden. Sometimes I could take it into the garden in a wheelchair. But, you know, that didn't happen very often. So. I learned all kinds of things during those seven months, and I'm very, very grateful to the hospice folks who came in and helped me and gave me advice because I really had no idea what I was doing taking care of an elderly person. Yeah. So what is bursitis, by the way? I'm not even sure I know what it is. Bursitis is like some kind of inflammation in the knee. That's what I thought. Yeah. Yeah. So she went to the hospital for three days and she was then sent to a rehabilitation clinic, not clinic, I guess a center, a rehabilitation center. And when she saw what they wanted her to do, which was get up and walk again, she pretty much decided she didn't want to do that. Oh, OK. Oh, that's why she she ended up bedbound and the head of the rehabilitation center said to me, you know, after since your mother was in the hospital for three to five days, she is entitled to a nursing home bed. If you'd like us to move her into our nursing home wing, we'd be happy to do that. And I knew that she wanted to go home. So we said no, thank you. And we wheeled her out to the car and took her back to Wellfleet. OK. And what was it like caring for her at home? Well, it was, as I said, I really knew nothing about how to go about doing this. So it was it was challenging at first until I learned the ropes because while she had a walker before the bursitis, so she was pretty independent still. She once she became bedbound, it was really up to me. I had to make all her meals and and bring them in and respond when she needed help and she would call to me. She was very, very verbal. So it was quite interesting. And I realized early on that some of the things she said could help other people. So I started writing down what she said. And she, as I said, the hospice folks were wonderful. They really we had a wonderful hospice aide who came in Monday through Friday for an hour. So I could go out in the garden and just sit if I wanted to just totally meditate on something very different. Yeah. And I also learned a lot about end of life because I again, I like most people, I knew nothing about end of life. So my mom, as I said, didn't want to die. She she was convinced that, you know, when she when you die, that's it. You're gone. And I didn't share that dealing because I had had a really unusual experience myself when gosh, it must have been 1970 or 71, I guess, 71. I had lost a former boyfriend and I suddenly felt that he was in the room with me. I was lying in bed and I felt that he was there. And he communicated with me that he was all right. And he hoped that I was all right. That was the message. And then it was over. But I can tell you, it was very similar to when, you know, you're in a family situation and you have someone you know really well who comes up behind you and it's your brother, not your sister. That was the way it was, that that's how I knew that's who it was. And I thought, oh, what a strange thing. And so I called my mom and I said, you know what? Charlie came to see me. And she she was very worried. She said, oh, you better get a therapist. So, yeah. So when my mother started experiencing visits from what she called invisible people, I was on board. I knew what was happening because I had experienced that myself. Wow. Now, bursitis is not typically something that that is is fatal. Right. So what was it? What was it? Was it causing something else with her lungs or something? No, you know, bursitis was limited to the knee as far as I could tell. And I'm not even sure I don't remember what medication they gave her. But, you know, she was in the hospital. So I had total confidence that she was being well taken care of. And I went there every day and spent the day with her just to make sure everything was OK. OK. But it didn't have any other influence on her as far as I know. And she had she was she had no terminal illness. She was not sick. She was you know, she was she was doing well, really well, considering that she was 96 by then. Yeah. Yeah. I just said, yeah, that was a little bit confusing to me because it sounds like you said you didn't have a terminal diagnosis. So when she started to feel like she was coming close to the end of her life and seeing these invisible people, what was going on with her physically? Well, she was she would lie in bed and the hospice people showed me how to turn her so that she wouldn't get bed sores. Right. And, you know, they would come and give her bed baths and wash her hair. And so they were really helpful from that point of view, they showed me all the care. Yeah. Brian, I should also say I had a job while I was doing this. She wasn't my only concern because I was running a bed and breakfast. Right. Her old home. So we had guests. This took place. Let's see. The bursitis was in March. So she came home in April and our bed and breakfast season really would gear up in May with Memorial Day and then July, August, September, the house would be full. So but she loved guests. And so she really thought it was fun that there were people staying in the house. So that was very nice because it was her house. They'd been living there. She'd been living there with my parents since 1970, I think. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Now, I know I have a friend that took care of her mother and how much she was going through her making her transition. And it was really hard on her. I mean, just how how were you holding up physically during this time? Well, I think the hardest thing for me during the main part of when I was caring for my mother was the sleep deprivation because she would she would wake me up. And as I said, you know, since we had a bed and breakfast, I couldn't have her making noise in the middle of the night. So I would always go in and respond when she would call me. And so frequently that would mean losing sleep, you know, having to get back into bed and start sleeping again. And then there was something really strange that happened. I'd say maybe August, September, where she would start sleeping for 24 to 48 hours in a row. So I would, you know, I'd go in and make sure she was OK and offer a drink of water or change her or you have to call them diapers. They're underwear that they're, you know, basically they're adult diapers. And so I would be there, but then she'd go right back to sleep. So after she did that, which was really hard for me because I would be awake most of that time, too. Then she would sleep for three to three days in a row. So, you know, she when she was in that and she was very verbal, I didn't mention that. So she would talk when she the 24 to 48 hours, she would talk the whole time. Hmm. And yeah, so that was that was a challenging that for me, that was the most challenging part, the sleep deprivation. Yeah. I didn't really know where we were going. So I just, you know, I floated along beside her and I just trusted that everything would work out. Yeah. So when she started mentioning people visiting her, how did how did how did you take that? What was your thoughts? Well, I didn't really know what to think, quite honestly, despite my experience in 1970, because she was she was really, really scared at first, and she would hide under the covers. So I'd come into the room and I'd find her hiding under the covers. And I said, what's the matter? And she'd say, well, the two elderly gentlemen who were here visiting me and, you know, I look around and I say, well, nope, nobody there now. Yeah. And I didn't know if it was something that, you know, was going wrong in her head. And then she said, um, my my sister was here. Well, her sister is deceased. So that gave me a clue that this was well, I didn't know what to call him. So I called her her doctor and he said she's having hallucinations. Right. And I said, I don't think that's what it is. And he said, I'll give you a medication for it. And I said, no, thank you. I think I think we can we can deal with this. So that's what happened. She would there would be like her sister came back a lot. They used to share a room when they were growing up in New Jersey. And so she was there a lot and also one of her roommates from college came frequently. And for my mother, it was it was it was really pleasant to have them come and see her. And she really believed it. So I started believing it, too. And she'd say, well, you know, she she was wearing a beautiful new dress that I'd never seen before today or something. Uh huh. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, and I have some experience with this. When my father in law was passing, he had he did have dementia and he would talk about people that he hadn't seen in years. And he would say, I saw this person, I saw that person. This was, I don't even know, 20 plus years ago. And it was before I knew what I know now. So I just said a solution nations. But it was it was well after the time he passed, when I realized everybody he ever mentioned coming to visit him was deceased. So it was like he never said anything about someone he worked with, like, you know, the day before or even weeks before. We were realizing that everybody he mentioned were people who were deceased. Absolutely. Well, that's that's really, I think normal. I didn't know at the time, I mean, I've learned a lot since then. And actually, when I was taking care of my mom, it was the last year was 2006. And back then, there wasn't really a name for this, but I've learned since then that it's called Deathbed Visioning. And it's quite normal. I've read several recent books by hospice workers who explain that this happens regularly with their patients. Yeah. And it's good to know it's good for people to know that because, again, it's going to be chalked out to dementia or hallucinations. The doctors are going to want to medicate. But there are some patterns we could see. The other thing is a lot of times is people are making a transition. They do sleep a lot because I believe at that time they're visiting between this world and the next world. So they're they are literally making their transition. They're being acclimated into that. And I'm glad to hear that your mother, you know, it's interesting that she had fear at first, which would be expected since she didn't have a belief in this, but that, you know, eventually she was comforted by these visions. She was totally comforted. And at the very end, she passed in November. At the very end, it was my father who was there. And he hadn't come before that. But at the very end, he was there and her beloved grandmother. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that really told me that, you know, OK, this is really the end now. Yeah. Yeah. So you started you said by, I think, taking notes and then you you started a blog after that, right? For I was it just for family members? Well, I was I was writing a blog. I started a blog because I wanted people to know what was going on for with my mom for family and friends. And I had no intention that it would be for everybody. But of course, this was at the beginning of blogs when people were writing blogs. And anybody could read it. And to my surprise, strangers found the blog and started following and they would leave comments. And, you know, some one person would say, I've lived through something very similar to this. Thank you for writing about it. Or, you know, some sort of comment like that. And so that was very validating that that was happening. And then one of the people who I did not know, she said, you know, this is really interesting. You should you should put this in a book. Yeah. So that's where the idea of creating a memoir came to me. Yeah. Yeah. So when you're when your your mother is making this, I guess, evolving and a front for beliefs about what comes next. Did you were you ever able to talk to her about what she was expecting when she crossed over? How did that go with you? I didn't really talk about that with her. She I guess perhaps because I wasn't sure how she would react because of her past of saying, no, I don't want to die. And, you know, yeah. So I didn't I didn't really bring up the subject. OK, I could have, but I know I didn't. Yeah. And when she finally did make once you did finally pass, was it was a sudden thing or how how did that how was her transition? Well, there again, hospice was providing guidance. You know, they the nurse came and said, you know, I, you know, to her, I think it's your time now. Oh, OK. And so that told me that, you know, we weren't going to be together much longer. Yeah. And then when she passed away, which is like two days later, because they the nurse told me to start giving her morphine when the body was closing down. And so I was I was with her a lot and just, you know, just sitting and making sure she was OK. Yeah, this was in November. And then I went to pick up the mail, you know, which was like a five minute walk, no more than five minutes. And that was when she passed away. And the hospice people told me, don't be surprised if she decides to leave when you're not there. Yeah. So I knew to expect that. Yeah. And I'm glad they told you that. And that's something I think is really important for people to understand, because a lot of times people say, I want to be with them when they when they go. And everybody's different. That's my goal. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really interesting because some people, it seems like they wait for the loved ones to be there, like someone say someone's coming in from out of town or whatever the way to they get there. And then there's also some like yourself who's there 24 seven. The way to you're out of the room, you know, the way to you go to get a cup of coffee or take a shower or whatever. And they'll leave during that time. Yeah, I've heard that, too. I know that my mother wasn't living. She was from New Jersey. And when her mom was passed away, she her mom passed away quite young. And my mother was working in Manhattan. And when she got home, she went home when she heard her mother was at the end of life. And the the there was a lovely woman from Jamaica who had been with the family for for years and years and years. And she said to my mother, your mother waited for you. So that's exactly confirming what you just said. Yeah. Yeah. So I for people that, you know, again, sometimes people will have regrets about the way their loved one transition because they were out of the room or something. And they'll say, well, I just want to take a shower or just whatever. It's like, no, I think that that's that can be intentional, that sometimes people, depending on how they are, they they don't maybe want to spare you seeing it or maybe they it's a private moment, I guess, for for them making the transition. And you titled your book, Seeing Joy. And this is about kind of a heartbreaking story. Why? Why Joy? I'll just hold it up here. Yeah. Yeah. Actually. I had started out the blog was called by B's Bedside because her name was Beatrice and everyone called her B. So it was by B's Bedside for a long time. And then I I realized there was something because, you know, this this book took a long time because when I first wrote it, she passed away in November of 2006. So in 2007, I wrote the book and Seeing Joy was something that she had said. When I came into her room, she was in another state. She was like. Almost like there was sparkles around. And I realized that something was going on and she said, I see joy. Oh, wow. So that's where the title came. Wow. And so then I had a literary agent in 2008, but she was unable to set the book. So that's something I didn't I had no idea about. You can write a book. It can be a great book. But if, you know, the agent can't sell it to the editors, they were afraid of the subject of death. They didn't want to deal with it at all. Right. This was before I took a one days being mortal. This, you know, two thousand eight. So they weren't they weren't there yet. Yeah. So then I did a lot of revision in the book and I decided to pull it out when I realized how many baby boomers were turning sixty five and that this was something that would interest them. I hope that, you know, they're the publishing industry would understand that now it's a it's OK to talk about that. That's really interesting. Well, I just turned sixty five like two weeks ago. So it's really interesting you made that that comment. But yeah, there are there are a bunch of us that are getting to be that that age now and people, you know, we don't want to talk about that. You know, it's something that's very scary to a lot of us. And we're seeing our parents transition and we're seeing some of our friends transition, so it's time for for people to face it. That's that's something that's here for for all of us. And it's not a bad thing. And I do I love that seeing joy and I love that your mother said that because it also does show it's it's never too late to get over that fear. I I grew up with an extreme fear of death and and like it gave me panic attacks and stuff. So, you know, I've realized by facing that, that there's really nothing there to fear. And if someone, you know, if your mother can go from that belief as an elderly age to, you know, being first afraid of the people coming in a room to now like, oh, they're here to they're here to greet me, they're here to accept me and and to be, you know, knowing that you're going to be pain free, you know, when you've gone through that, it's something to look forward to in a sense. Yeah. And she was she'd always been very social in her life. And so when she saw how many guests she was receiving, even if they were invisible people, she wanted to have tea parties for them. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, invisible is an interesting word, too, because invisible with our physical eyes, but very visible with our spiritual eyes. Well, she could see them. And, you know, strangely enough, they always came in to the room through a corner of the ceiling. Yeah. And she would, you know, she would show me they're right up there. And, you know, I would look and I couldn't see them. And, you know, yeah, you know, that's an interesting thing, too. And it lines up with people that have near death experiences. They'll say when they leave their bodies, they're in the corner of the room and they'll be looking at they're looking at their body. And I just interviewed a guy the other day. He's an intensive care doctor. And he talks about one experience he had in particular when a person left their body. And he said he saw like a tunnel kind of a light open up in the corner of the room. Wow. So, you know, these things, they do line up and now they're finally able to talk about them because he's written a book and he's put it in the book, which a doctor would have never done 20 or 30 years ago. Exactly. You know, it's it's helping people understand this is not just one off things, you know, hospice workers, like you said, will tell you this is what you can expect. You know, a doctor says hallucinations, a hospice worker will say they're having visitations. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And there was there was one time towards the end where I think my mom did what you just mentioned, that she left her body. And I don't know exactly what she was doing, but she came back. But that was very interesting to me, too, in thinking about it afterwards. At the time, I didn't realize what was going on. Yeah. But when I was writing the book, I thought, oh, that's what happened. Well, there are a lot of people that believe that we every night when we sleep, believe our bodies and we visit the astral plane. So it makes sense that as we're getting closer to make our transition, that's people are sleeping more. People will oftentimes turn in where I'll hear sometimes people say, well, toward the end, they hardly they hardly said anything. They weren't speaking because they're really turning inward, you know, getting ready to make their transition. So it's not that they don't care about us or anything, but they're they're moving on. They're going to the next place. Absolutely. Absolutely. And Brian, I should also tell you, I don't know if you saw the cover here. That is my mother. People don't always understand that. Oh, wow. This is my mother when she was 25. Oh, wow. And I decided to put her portrait on the cover of the book because it's mentioned several times in the book. Yeah. The designer added the stars, which I think does a great job of communicating what's going to happen in the book. Yeah. The cover is beautiful. Your mother is a beautiful woman. And the thing that's interesting to me about that also is, you know, people say that when we cross over the next place, most people are around the age of 20 to 20 to 35. This seems to be like the age that people migrate to. That's the age of we're kind of in our in our peak. So a lot of times we'll think of our loved ones as they were in that last stage, that last state. But that's not who they are when they're on the other side. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I'll never forget my grandmother sitting at the table with me one time. And she was she was elderly to me anyway. She wasn't even really that old. And she said, I still feel like I'm 16. And I was like, I looked at her and I thought, well, that's ridiculous. You're an old person, you know. And now that we're you know, we we get older, we realize we still feel the same inside, you know, our bodies are aging. But we still feel like that person we were when we were kids. So I love the fact that you put your mother on there the way that I believe she truly is. Yeah, yeah. So what would you like for people to know from from your experience of being a caregiver and what you learned going through that process? I think that the most important thing is for people to realize how rewarding this is, because our society does not encourage people to take care of their elderly parents. It's, you know, sometimes it's really difficult because the United States is so broad that one person can be living in California and another person in, you know, New Jersey. And so it's it's hard to adjust your life with my husband. We were fortunate because we were living in in Europe and I was looking to come back to the United States. I'd been living outside of the country for too long. And I really wanted to come back. So when I saw this opportunity to move into my parents' house in a beautiful place, Cape Cod, I was all for it. But I, you know, I didn't really know how that was going to work out, but it worked out really well. And I think that people need to understand that it is possible. You know, the idea of home care of an elderly parent, maybe, you know, you haven't always had an excellent relationship with that parent as time goes by. I discovered that things really changed when I was there with her. And it was very rewarding. We were able to meet on a different level than before. And where I had been the child and she the parent, then I became the parent and she the child towards the end. I think that's beautiful. And thank you for saying that about being rewarding. I'm working with two clients right now that are both dealing with elderly parents and they're living with their elderly parents. And sometimes we think of it like this is a burden. You know, it's like I've got to just one of my clients was kind of like, well, my life's kind of on hold until she makes her transition. And then I can, you know, you know, go on and do the next thing. And I said, I really like you to maybe think of this as an opportunity. You know, most of us don't get that it's kind of bonus time at the end. We get to be with them again in a different way. And a lot of times they're more vulnerable. You know, your your your mother or father might have been a very gruff person. They really didn't express a lot of emotion and stuff. And as we get to the end, a lot of times that stuff starts to come out and you get a chance to say, I'm sorry, you get a chance to say all the things that we don't say on a daily basis. You're absolutely right. And in my case, my husband said, you know, see this in the beginning. See, this is an opportunity to get to know your mother better. Which it was. And you're right about the vulnerability. It's it's it's it creates a different relation between. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, our parents generations are different. I know a lot of times, you know, our parents were taught not to express a lot of emotion in many cases. And they were taught, I am the parent. You are the child. This is the way it is. And so, again, that dynamic changes as as you know, you start to care for them. And then, again, as people get closer to the end, a lot of times we're like, OK, I want to I want to make amends. I want to I want to express myself. I want to say these things. And you were, you know, fortunate, I believe, to have that time with your mother to have that experience before she made her transition. Yeah, I'm so so very glad that, you know, I think it was one of the most meaningful experiences in my whole life, really. Yeah. You know, it's right up there with giving birth, you know. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's you know, it's I was it's funny you said that because I was talking to this ICU doctor the day and I was saying, I think death and birth are really mirror images of each other. Birth is when we come into this physical incarnation. And death is when we go out of this one into the next one. It's not an end. It's like a birth. And I think I think of your mother, you know, looking up and saying, I see joy. It's like she was looking forward to that. She's looking forward to knowing there are people and all those people that I lost. And when you get to a certain age, my mother will be 90 in November. She is the last of 10 children. So she's got nine siblings waiting for hundreds of people that, you know, she's known over her life. So that's something to look forward to as we get closer to that. Absolutely. Yeah. So in terms of the what your mother or what you were saying earlier, though, that you're you already have an experience of the afterlife from like 1970, which is really interesting to me, because that's like, you know, we were talking 50 years ago, but that really made an impact on you. That's what I would call a spiritually transformative experience where you're like, OK, well, now I feel like I know. So I think you feel like you're pretty solid that there is something on the other side. I'm curious. So have you had any experiences with your mother since she's passed? You know, in the beginning, sometimes I could feel that she was around. But not not so much recently. I know she's delighted that she's in this book. Yeah, because, you know, she she I when I was writing down some of the things she said, and she says, what are you doing? And I said, well, I'm thinking of writing a book about you. And so she immediately started using all these complicated words. And she said, well, you know, if there's going to be a book, we can use big words in the book. Yeah, it sounds like. Well, it's great. It's good to know that she she was for the project. And she was totally behind the project. She she was very pleased that I was doing that. Yeah. And that, you know, and that's, you know, her legacy continues. You know, her her her her impact on the world continues. And you sharing this is going to help so many people hopefully maybe reframe the way they look at things. You know, really, frankly, when I first heard, you know, you were going to be on. I was I was thinking about my friend who dealt with her mother as she was going through dementia at the end and staying at home. And it really kind of broke her down. So I think there's a there's a point where, you know, we can be helpful. And there's a point where we have to call in for help, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. But the other thing is, there's so much help available now. I hear keep hearing wonderful things about hospice and people, you know, take advantage of the things that are out there. Yeah, you know, you know, there's a wonderful organization called End Well. Oh, no. OK. And well, I think it's fairly new. And the person who started it as I think she has a background as a doctor. It's located in Los Angeles and they have a conference every year. So that might be something that you would be interested in speaking at that conference. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, we we tend to go too far in our society in lots of ways. And, you know, in our society, when people get older, we tend to want to put them away. You know, and people say, you know, I can never live with my parent or whatever. So you can get the help that you need because we can't, you know, we all have limited things. You said you need to get sleep. So you've got to take care of your own body as well. But also just don't pass on this opportunity and say, I'm just going to I'm going to put them away. And I think it's a wonderful chance to get to really know our parents at a deeper level. And and it helps us, too. I mean, like you said, this is maybe one of the most meaningful experiences of your life. It was definitely a meaningful experience for me. And now I'm facing my husband is a lot older than me. So he's he's in a nursing home in Sweden. So it's very interesting to see the difference in care there and here. And he having seen what I lived through with my mother, he didn't want me to have to do the same thing for him. He made the decision to go back to Sweden. And in a way, I tried to move there, but they're they're very they don't want migrants right now. They accepted so many migrants from 2015 to 2020 that they are very, very careful. And even being married to somebody doesn't make a difference, apparently. So I was really sad about that. But fortunately, we have FaceTime and I'll get and talk to him through FaceTime and on the telephone. And I go and see him several times a year. So but it's it's it's hard when, you know, someone you love has reached the end of life. And, you know, it's it's it. And I also find that it's different with a spouse as an apparent. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, every every person I was going to say, every relation, every person is different. You know, what I've lost a child and I've known people that have lost spouses. And it's it's all it's all different. You know, and we can't really, you know, compare or contrast them. And it's really the way that we care for people. And you know, you're just bringing up the immigration thing. And I don't want to get political, but I was just talking to someone about immigration in this country the other day. And they're like, you know, those people should just stay in their own country. People people do migrate and move for different reasons. And to say that, you know, you're married to someone and you won't let them be with their spouse, I think that's silly. But countries do that. Yeah, it's it's a shame. People don't really understand migration. I guess I understand migration better because my dad was Russian. Yeah, he was a refugee and he had to leave Russia. They didn't he didn't have any choice. He didn't especially want to leave Russia. Right. His his father was somebody that couldn't stay. And so he moved his family as best he could out of Russia because the the other option was to be killed. Yeah. Well, you know, the thing is, a lot of Americans and I don't I'm not a big traveler myself, but, you know, we don't travel very much. So we don't really understand the world. And we think so it's you've had that experience of moving across borders and having families and remembering that your family is immigrants, which a lot of us forget. So absolutely. America is made up of immigrants. Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's who our country is. So we kind of went a little bit off off the topic there. But I did want to touch on that because it's it's part of humanity. Yeah. And that that end of life is a well, I hate the phrase even end of life because it's the end of our physical life. It's a it's a transition that we're making. And it's a very it's a very special time that we should try to get to spend with people if we possibly can. I'm grateful that you have the technology to to to be with him, at least and see him and speak with him. Yeah. And I actually today I just got my tickets to go back in September and see him some more. And I, you know, I stay very much on top of it. And because of my experience with my mom, I know what to expect. And so I, you know, I I'm waiting for him to tell me that his mom has come to visit him. I'm sure that's going to happen. And then I will get on the plane and go. Yeah, I know it's time. It's good. It's good to have those landmarks to look for and to know and understand. And and yeah, I'm glad that you have that. But thank you for doing this so much, because I think it's really helpful. I know it's helpful. So, again, I think I always think about my father-in-law when he passed and those visions that he was having. And we're like, let's just dementia. You know, he's just making things up. And I was I even said things like we can't differentiate dreams from reality. So maybe he had a dream about this person. Well, you know, what I discovered, or I think it was happening with my mom as time went on, was that she was reliving parts of her life. She would she would you know, some people might think it was dementia, but she there was one time specifically, I remember where she was very upset about somebody not getting on a boat in Genoa, I think it was. And she was in after college. She went to Europe with her sister and her mother. And it's totally possible that that actually happened to her. And she was remembering it. I, you know, I did not think that there was anything wrong with that happening. Yeah. Well, that's a great thing that, you know, and you didn't you didn't argue with her because sometimes people do that. And I'm thinking more of dementia because I've lost my in-laws to dementia and they say, don't argue with them. And because we think, well, they're they're not living reality. They may be living a different reality. So when they say that they they had a tea party last night with people in the room, they you know, they they may have actually experienced that. So the more people like yourself, you know, put this out into the world and maybe it'll open up people's minds to what's really happening. I hope so. Yeah, I hope so. Here's my book. See you. Yeah, well, it's I would tell people, you know, if you're coming to or you're having these experiences or coming to this, you know, to grab the book. I think it's it's much needed. I'm glad that it's finally out, you know, and you are persistent to get it out to share your mother's story and share your story. So thanks for being here today. Well, you're welcome. And thank you so much, Brian. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, it's great to talk to you. Have a great afternoon. Take care. Bye bye.