What To Say Instead of “I’m Sorry for Your Loss” | Emilio Parga | EP 510

Close your eyes and imagine. What if the things in life that cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges. Challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried, but what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth, and I am your host, Brian Smith. Hi there, I'm Brian Smith, and welcome, or welcome back to Grief to Growth as the case may be. This show is about making sense of life, especially when life doesn't make sense. We talk about grief, loss, and the questions that keep us up at night. Who are we, where do we go when we die, and is it possible that the people we've lost are actually closer than we think? I bring on guests who help illuminate the path, no matter how dark it might feel right now. My guest today is Emilio Parga. Emilio has spent his career in the rooms where most people spend their whole lives avoiding. The ones where a child has just learned that someone they love is gone. As a pediatric thanatologist, Emilio has made it his life work to understand how children and teens actually process death, and to teach the adults around them, parents, teachers, coaches, and entire companies how to stop going silent and start showing up. Through his work with the solace tree, he's guided families, schools, workplaces, and athletic teams through some of the hardest conversations the community can have. In this episode, we're going to explore what happens where grief has nowhere to go, when people go quiet, when nobody knows what to say, and when that silence starts to do its own kind of damage. Emilio is going to walk us through what intentional, structured dialogue actually looks like after a death, and why he believes talking about a loss is a skill we have to learn, not an instinct we're just supposed to have. We'll get into how grief shows up differently in a five-year-old than it does in a high school athletic team. Where people consistently get wrong about supporting someone who's grieving, and the language Emilio uses to help people say something instead of nothing. We'll also talk about the difference between moving on and actually growing forward, and what it would take to shift the culture around grief in this country, especially for kids. So if you've ever frozen up because you didn't know what to say to someone who's just lost a person they love, if you stayed silent because you were afraid silence was better than saying the wrong thing, this conversation is for you. And if you want to continue this conversation after the interview, head over to griefthegrowth.substack.com and there you'll find an article about today's discussion that you can comment on and connect with me and with other listeners. And with that, I want to welcome Emilio Pargo. Thank you, Brian. It is an honor to be a part of this. I've waited months to be on the air with you, so thank you. I apologize for the way, but I appreciate your patience. I have to ask you, pediatric thanatologists, we hear those words separately. We don't often hear them together. How did you get into this? Well, I've been working with children for a very, very long time, coaching in the 90s, a teacher, special needs teacher, adaptive PE, school counselor, and then 2000. And just was doing this, the organization, the Solistry, which were 24 years now. Wow. We, our biggest thing was when we started was how do we have that conversation around children? How do we start to listen to them because they have so much to say and we've learned not to underestimate their ability to love, think, feel. They just know they see our eyes or see our shoulders. We started working with children so much. We went into preschools. We knew that teachers and preschools, teachers and preschools, teachers on regular ed because I got all the credentials for teaching and counseling and there was zero hours. Even at the university, there was just no classes. We started working with children. We tried to go into work with social workers, the county, the state, school counselors, outside of our school, just kind of see who's talking and listening to the children. And so as a Thanatologist, I've always considered myself a Thanatologist working with those who've experienced death in their life. I just put that word pediatric in front of it because we were in the hospitals and we worked with pediatric nurses. We were working with pediatric oncologists. And I'm like, I feel like that's what we're doing. Now grief is a feeling word. It's not a fixing thing. And so we were getting everyone to think and feel what this was like for young children. We were also writing books with children about grief and we were sitting down with them. So that's the long story short is I decided, well, let's just I'm going to call myself a pediatric Thanatologist because we work with so much of their death and preparing them for funerals or and the rituals and the celebrations of life. I just dubbed it that way, not knowing that there was really no one else using that name and some other people are doing it. But we specialize in explaining that the children preparing from the funeral or the Shiva, whatever that is, like, you know, the culture, the tradition of the family, the religion. And it just became that. Now I'm doing other things too, but we're still working with children at school and sports, preparing them for a cremation, all the things. So it just works out. Yeah. Yeah. So are you working primarily with children who are experiencing the death of someone else or do you also work with children who are facing their own death? Both, but more children who have had somebody die. But 24 years ago, about 22 years ago, we started a program called Kids Can Cope. And it was have kids who were who were, you know, if you will, you know, imminent, imminent. And we started working with those families that have those conversations. They wanted to know, we felt like let's go in and find out what they want everyone to know, but also to have those conversations. Not like you're sick, but what am I sick of? What's the cancer called? What's the illness called? Let's explain. It's a grief is such a family process. So let's talk about what's going to happen. Let's be hopeful, number one. But let's talk about if something bad does happen because it's closer and it's and it's been dubbed imminent. Not like, well, let's be hopeful. He has cancer. Not everybody dies from cancer. Not every child dies from cancer, but some do. And we have to have those conversations because then all of a sudden the child doesn't know where the child's dead. And it wouldn't have been nice because the kids have said, I kind of want to know why I'm dying or why I'm super, super sick. That's a hopeful piece in it because they want to know it wasn't like all these experts or myself decided they need to know how they're going to die. They kind of wanted to know. And it's just fair. They're humans first. And it's it's fair to a child to tell them what's happening with their body, of course, being hopeful and and wanting to support them and keep them living for as long as we can. But if they're dying, let's have that conversation. Yeah, well, I mean, I think you're right. We sometimes don't give children enough credit for, you know, being being able to handle things or to receive things what's going on around them. So they'll perceive it. But we try to hide it away from them. And as a society, we're terrible about dealing with grief anyway. But I guess particularly with children's have been your experience. Yes. Yes. And I wanted I have to plug in the Dougie Center. They've been in Portland, Oregon for 40 years. They started this. They pioneered this whole concept of children want to talk about it, you know, provide in that space and not knowing that Mr. Rogers was doing this in the 60s with all the assassinations and, you know, Vietnam War. He was also the one that said kids also want to know. He just he knew that from working with children in his in his program. And here's what motivated me to do with what I'm doing. Twenty four years later, he said what's mentionable is manageable and what's manageable is mentionable. Kids will talk to you about anything as long as they know that you're listening and you're present. And we we took that concept from him and we took it with kids who were dying, kids who had illnesses, kids who've had somebody die. And and they just want to talk about it. And so that's what's been so great that they do want to talk about it. And so the Dougie Center, Portland, Oregon, was started because when they said this kid wants to know his name was Dougie, why he's dying. They got a hold of Dr. Elizabeth Kugler Ross. And then so she starts spending time with him and she's like, wow. So kids really do want to know they want that language. We do need to have those conversations. So he is really this kid who started this 40 years ago and why there's a thousand grief centers in the world because of this one boy. Wow. Yeah. I know just from my own experience, I've talked to a couple of people, a couple of children who have lost siblings, for example. And they say they feel kind of left out or lost in the whole grieving process. Everybody focuses on the parents. But I think there's one person in particular that said, but nobody talked to me about how I felt about losing my brother. They're called the forgotten mourners. And that's one thing when our workshops, when we talk to organizations, specifically education, those are the kids that are feeling like they're the forgotten mourner. And society has dubbed them that way because they feel like, well, I know my brother and my sister died, but what about me because I miss him or her too. And I'm sad too. And how come no one's helping me get to soccer practice or having me want a donut or a steak for dinner, donut for breakfast or a juice. They're not paying attention to me because the schedules and routines have been flipped. And all of a sudden they're just sitting there going, I'm still here. And I'm sad too. And no one's leaning in and like, oh my gosh. And so that's what siblings and I'll tell you, we've learned early on that when siblings feel left out, they get in fights at school because they're like, I miss my brother too, but I'm angry. And they just hold it inside because they're not allowed to talk because they're preparing for a funeral memorial or the family's doing other things and they've forgotten about this other sibling or siblings. Well, I'm actually part of an organization called Helping Parents Heal. And it's obviously for parents who have lost children and we realize there's nothing for the siblings. And we've kind of started working on that some, but there doesn't seem to be anything for the kids. And there's not that very many books. There's organizations like yours out there that are probably a lot of us don't know about, like I didn't know this. And there's not that very many books out there on sibling loss. I want to say a handful compared to the death of a spouse or the death of a child, but not siblings. So it's super important to have this organization and continue to tell all these people, imagine all these adults now who had a sibling die when they were younger that don't even know about these. And they do wish there was something that they would have had to support them or even maybe now. You know, reconnect with an organization where when their brother or sister died, there was just no support and maybe they fell through the cracks. So there's just there's so much that's still missing. Yeah, I think there absolutely is. So, but we don't, you know, my daughter was 18 when her sister passed away. So she was technically an adult, but still really a child, a teenager. And sometimes we don't know how to talk to them because it might seem like they don't want to talk about it. The, the, the sibling. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of that is, is becoming a doer. We talk about just go ask them, Hey, I was, I was, I heard that your, your sister died, your sibling died. And I want you to know if you ever want to talk about him or her, I'm here to listen to you. And even as far as I haven't had any, I haven't had a sibling die, but I had a friend die or a parent die, but I sure love to learn more about your sibling. What was his name? What was her name? When you're ready to talk. So I think too, when I don't think, but when we open that up to the siblings who had a sibling death loss, then it starts to give them and gives them that space. Like, wow. Someone wants to listen to me talk about my brother. Cause I haven't been able to, or my sister, but now I can because someone reached out. It's just giving them opportunities in space. And it's such a privilege too. And the kids are like, I get to talk about it. It's exciting because a lot of people are like, we don't want to talk about your brother or sister who died. They just, they just don't, but we need to check in with them first and then find out, tell me more about your brother. What was their name? Favorite color. What would you guys like to do? You know, all the things that seem normal and, and, and organic. Yeah. I, well, I can only, I can only speak from that one experience. Cause I have, you know, I see my daughter passed away, but I think about my daughter, Kayla, she was a freshman in college at the time. And she, I remember her saying, I don't want to be the girl that's known as a girl with a dead sister. So she didn't bring it up a lot of times. And it was, it was a little bit concerning to us, but that was just the way that she cope with it. Is that something that you've seen before? Yeah, we do see that. And that's why these support groups for children in these grief centers have, they're called sibs, sibs groups or sibling groups. Right. And it gives the siblings who's had a sibling die an opportunity to share, bring a momentum in and talk and feel safe about talking about their sibling who died. But yeah, that's across the board. That's what they, that's how they feel. And that's what they think and know that other than that safe space, they don't know where else, because no one's talking about it at soccer practice or a computer. Yeah. Yeah. My, my feeling was she was like, I just want to be seen as normal because when you're 18, you know, she was going into her sophomore year at school. She didn't want people feeling sorry for her. She didn't want to draw attention to herself. So, you know, we asked her to see the school counselor when she went back to school the next year and she agreed to do that. But we didn't feel like there was, you know, she wasn't getting that, like, that peer support that I think is really so important. And, and like I said, she was like, I don't, I don't want to bring it up to other people because I don't want people to look at me weird. And there's nothing wrong with counseling or therapy, right? But we know now, 24 years later, after the kids have gone through this program, wow. It was helpful to know that other kids were feeling like I was feeling, I had a sister die. And there's times when people have gone to counseling or therapy, they're like, well, the therapist never had a death before. Or that therapist or counselor doesn't really know what it's like to have a sibling die because it's so unique. And so it's hard for that connection. Whereas in a group, there's, there, you see the connection when you're doing support groups that those siblings know, oh my gosh, she, she had a sibling die, a brother, sister, he did. And that's, that's the connection piece. And that's the growth and the grieving, you know, and, and, and to see them make that connection with someone else other than it's just you and I now. And I'm going to learn more about your, your brother's sister who died. Again, there's nothing wrong with that. But sometimes these kids now that we know what we know need that connection. Yeah. I've noticed even with parents in our, in our organization, they'll say, I want to talk to someone who lost a child to suicide. I want to talk to someone who lost a child to cancer or, or whatever the way that their particular child passed. And again, we don't see that, that's kind of support for the sibling because they want to, they want to have that connection. And there's some unique things, you know, like a lot of times I've seen, I've seen some in my experience way there. Everybody's so worried about the parent that the sibling feels like, well, I have to be, I have to be strong for them because they're going through so much. And they do kind of, as you said, it's kind of like the forgotten person who's grieving. Yeah. The forgotten mourner. Yeah. And there's actually, have you ever heard of the national calendar day? I have not. So the national day calendar dot, oh, I think it's dot org or dot com. It's all the things that celebrate each day, like national winding, national means of day, national go to the park. They have a national siblings day. And so when that day comes up, we put that out even when it's coming out. I can't remember what day it was, but let's say it's in September and we're in August. As we continue to speak, we put those special days out for people to know that that day's coming up. Like, like, for instance, August 31st, every year is national grieving day where we acknowledge that people are grieving something. That's much just death, but we're grieving something that day. And we need to check in with people and pay attention to our colleagues or family members or our children that they are grieving something. And it's just a day. But there is a national siblings day. And it's an opportunity for these kids to say, you know, even post on social media. I'm thinking of my brother today, my sister's day for national siblings day, even though they're no longer here. They're here. Right. And they celebrate that and honor them and share a picture and maybe share a story. Yeah, I think that's great. So what, you know, again, as a parent who's maybe lost a child and they have a sibling, what do you recommend a parent do? What's the same about kids and what's different about kids when it goes through going through grief? You know, I'm going to say this and it's hard at the moment because we live in these moments. But I tell people also to pay attention to that child who no longer has a brother and sister. We know that that adult also doesn't have a son or a daughter. Right. And children grieve, teens grieve differently than adults. But to also have other family members, we asked other family members to pay attention to that sibling, whether there's six kids and now there's five or there's two and now there's one. So we really want that wraparound support to check in with all the family members, even at work to check in on that one kid who's there only or the other siblings to let them know, hey, we're going to ice cream today. We know that today is today would have been your brother's birthday or today's your brother's birthday, however you want to preface it. Right. And we'd like to celebrate him, not just because he's not there. We're not going to talk about it, but really to get family, friends and colleagues to do their very, very best to celebrate that person who's no longer here on any given holiday, just in general, a general check in just to be a part of that. And we call it their doers, the ones who continue to do that for a very, very long time until they feel like it's enough. Not that it's ever enough, but it's lifetime because grief is lifetime and grief never ends. So how can we support this family by including everyone in the celebration of a birthday anniversary or just let them know, hey, even when we make a phone call, a text message or an email, hey, I was thinking about you today. I know the anniversary, we're going to be out of town, but the anniversary of your son who died or your daughter who died. And we were thinking of them. We actually did a special memory or we planted flowers or we donated. We knew that he or she liked to run or played soccer. And so we donated to this organization for kids with cancer. You know, it's all those little things that are the big things. And that's what I've always told the public. That's what I've always told the public. And I've always told surrounding family members to that family because they're just in a different state to not forget those the kids that are deemed the forgotten mourner. Yeah, I love that. So what about for a parent goes, well, I just can't seem to get through to them. They say they're doing fine, you know, because I guess I've seen this a couple of times. I'm only talking from anecdotal evidence. You've got the data, I'm sure. But they say they're doing fine. What do I do? Yeah, I love this question. It just it's you just keep checking in. You keep being available. You keep taking the lunch. You keep sending them messages. You keep thinking, sending them. I'm thinking about you today. No anniversaries coming up. I was wondering, we're going to coffee. We're going to the park. We did. We did a donation to an organization that we believe you guys talked about. He or she would have loved. You know, it's a lifetime. It's not like, well, I'll just do it for this first year because grief never ends. We're constantly, constantly, especially if you want to be involved. As you know, Brian, after that first year or when it happens, you lose friends. Yeah. And friends change. Work, family changes. People change. And friends change. Neighbors change. So I always say, just keep doing it. It doesn't have to be every day. We call them reminders. Just put it in your phone. I'm going to reach out to Brian on, on, on, on, on, on labor day. Cause I know that they did a big thing on labor day with their family. We used to spend that time with them, but now I'm like, you know what? I, and it, this is what usually happens for people. Gosh, they're an adult and they're, they're friends. They're friends. Parent died or grandmother died and all of a sudden everyone's talking about it. But they remembered when, you know, you had a death in your life as a friend, maybe family member. And so it makes them rethink things by saying, I'm going to reach out to Brian. Cause man, I'm sad about my thing. I have to believe he's still sad. It's been two years or it's been nine months. Yeah. So I, that's what we talk about in our workshops. Keep checking in. Yeah. I love that you said that because there is this, this. A perception, I guess that grief is something that comes through a season and then it goes away and we get over it. Yeah. I used to teach this workshop. It's one of my favorites because I got a lot of people involved and I got a lot of this. It's called seasons of grief. We grieve through the seasons right now. We're in the summer falls in a month, right? Falls in like five weeks officially. Yeah. But we're grieving through the seasons. We know that because right now school, we know the weather's changing. We know football is coming. We know summers, uh, the going out boating and camping, all that stuff's ending and we know that we're going to get into sweatshirts, more football, more celebrations. It's just, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a lifetime. And so we want people to put that in their phones or put it on their calendar and you know, it goes a long way that the things I'm telling you that I learned that are little things have become big things because just those little things go a long, long way. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I'm glad we're educating people in this now because people might say, and I've heard this, it's been six months or it's been a year or it's been two years, you know, and it's been, it was just 11 years, June 24th since my daughter passed away. And I told people I woke up that day and I was in a real fun, you know, even though it's been 11 years, um, because it does, we have these reminders, things that come up on the calendar seasons. I didn't realize this. I was, I was working with the client and she's like, I don't understand. Like it's been two years since my son passed away, but somehow this July is just, you know, getting to me. And it's cause that was his favorite time of the year. He loves summer. So it will bring, it brings our body right back to where we were. Yeah. And it's not like after June 24th, you know, as a friend, let's just say friend or colleague, even family member, right? Cause everyone grieves differently and a lot of people, you lose people, though you gain people as well. Well, the 24th is over. I know he brought that up in May. Wow. We're supposed to see them on July 4th, but I just, I know that the anniversary was up. Maybe I'll reach out to him in the fall. I tell people you just keep becoming doers. Keep checking in because Brian's grief and his family's grief and this didn't end on six 24 because that's only 11 years. There's still October still coming. Christmas is still coming. And then seven and then six 24 27 is coming too. Yeah. And you know, there's a selected few that, that, that keep up. I love it. And it's because we've learned it and I tell people, I'm not telling you what to do. These are suggestions and you want to be helpful because you never know if it's going to happen to you and don't ever think this isn't going to happen to you. So start the conversation now. Start this up for it now. We know now that more men have unprocessed grief and so many people who have unprocessed grief, Brian, unacknowledged or unaddressed, can't handle what you went through, Brian, because they're still trying to process. You know, 2004, 1996, 1989. I just don't know what to do. And so I don't blame them for it. But when we talk to them, I want them to rethink based on what we've learned and how the workshops go, that people grieve for the rest of their life. You grieve the rest of your life. How can we help them and get more comfortable being uncomfortable by saying, Hey, Brian, I just been thinking about y'all. And I just wanted you to know, I'm here to listen to you. Or I was thinking of your family. That's all it takes. It's everything's a minute. I tell people it's one minute. Brian, I'm just thinking about you texting, just thinking about you on this anniversary. I know today's the day or the 23rd. I know tomorrow's the day when I was thinking about you. Done, Brian. Yeah. And that's the thing I think sometimes people feel like because they can't they can't do a big thing or they can't solve it. They just they say, well, I'm just not going to do anything. And there's this there's also this fear of saying the wrong thing. You know, so rather than say the wrong thing, I won't say anything at all. What do you have to say to people that come with that? Yeah. So I who don't say anything because they they're so afraid that they might say the wrong thing. And I and I always tell them we do some role playing. I say, just try it. And then I ask the audience, like, what are some things that you're afraid who in your life that's experienced this and you haven't been able to reach out to them yet. Or you're not sure what to say, but even thinking about them because you're a human. Yeah. And you've had a death in your life now. Or the media is bringing up someone who died and you're like, wow, it's really on my phone a lot and on TV. How can I reach out to Brian, the Smith family? And so it's like, well, I I just instead of saying I tell people don't just try not to just say I'm sorry. Let them know you're just thinking about them. That's the easiest one. And then maybe start the conversation or hey, we're having a family dinner. We'd like to invite you over or or we're going to ice cream sandwich, you know, just in and starting to invite them little by little. And sometimes you don't have to say anything like I know it's been four years. I know you said 11, but I'm saying an example. Right. Hey, Brian. I haven't seen you in a while. And I know it's I haven't seen you in about four years, but I was really thinking about what's your daughter's name. And then your other daughter. Kayla. Kayla. But when we do this, we do a lot of we do a lot of role playing. Mm hmm. Hey, it was was just thinking. I spent four years. I've been thinking about Shana, but also wanted to see if, you know, you all and even Kayla would just like to go do this or go do that. It's about showing up. That's what I've always said. And my biggest thing, Brian, is don't miss the moment. So if you see Brian on your phone, it comes up or you see him on the street or in his car, or it's a reminder because you guys did this 15 years ago and you're like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to, I got to reach out. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to reach out because not saying something is better than not saying something. Yeah. Yeah. And we've always said, just start off with the little things because they become big things. And remember you're not where he's at and we never know if we're ever going to be there. But for now, uh, that's how you can be supportive if you, if you really want to help. Does that make sense? It makes out. Yeah. It makes absolute sense. Well, I know you get it, but I'm trying to explain it because there's so much to it. Trying to explain it. They just tell people, just start small. Sometimes people think I haven't said anything in years and it's like, I don't really know what to say, but it's the small things that are the big things. And I know you help people with structured dialogue as well. Right. So, because again, I think a lot of us get so nervous and we're going to get tripped up. So how does structured dialogue help with that? Well, structured dialogue is more instead of saying the word, sorry, like Ivan said, the word sorry in 20 years, we just, we don't say sorry. There's no connection. I was with the girl Scouts yesterday and we talked about how do you help someone when somebody dies? But then we went when someone's sick, when someone went through a, these are teenagers when someone was going through a bad relationship. I'm so sorry. And it just is awkward. So the structured pieces, it's just telling yourself, I want to reach out to Brian today. I want to reach out to Kayla today. I just want them to know that I've really been thinking of them. And I am sad because teenagers have always told us, why are you sorry? You didn't kill Shana. Right. What are you sorry about? But it's more, it's more not missing the moment when you have an opportunity to say, I've been thinking, I've been thinking about Shana. I've been thinking about your family. And I want you to know if you ever want to talk about it, I'm, I'm here to listen. And even if you don't want to talk about it, I'd like to spend a little more time with you guys. I'd like to go to the park with you. Even Brian, we're having a function down, down in downtown and we'd love for you guys to come. And I tell people, don't think that you have to be like, do I bring up Shana? Do I let them know I'm sorry for them? I just say, just be natural. It's okay. Cause I said, if you're, if you're, it will come. I tell people it will eventually come because they might just say, Oh my gosh, there's a picture of Shana and, and then are on their phone and you just never know. And I'm like, what a great conversation. Like how are things, Brian? Yeah. You know, that's how that is structured. It's like, it's still a little casual, but it's still like, how do I get involved? Because I haven't been involved in 11 years. And all of a sudden I, when I saw them four years, four years ago, I felt like an idiot because I felt like I should say something. But if you feel that way, then say something, but then it's on them because, you know, if they're not saying anything, it's not like you're thinking, Ryan, well, Jim didn't say anything. So screw him. Yeah. Or Carol, those guys didn't invite us to the annual dinner for the soccer parties that they've been cause their kids are doing all this. So I love that. I just tell him, just show up, man. Just, just check in, you know? Yeah. And the thing is, I think that I'm sorry. It's just a reflexive thing. It's, it's just what people say. And I actually just posted this on sub stack the other day. And then I don't have a whole lot of sub stack followers. Typically if I post something, I'll get 10 likes, 15 likes, whatever. 2,200 people so far have commented on this where I said, instead of just saying, I'm sorry for your loss. Ask them about their loved one. Tell me, you know, what's his name? Tell me about, you know, who he is. And I got so many people saying someone asked me about my, my uncle or I asked this person and it just, it just opened up something. So I'm like, and when I was in, when I was in sales, we always said, never ask a closed into question. You never wanted to ask a yes or no question. And I'm sorry. It's not even that it's just, it just does not encourage conversation. So something that encourages conversation, someone, something that gets that person talking. And like you said, we can have some, we can have some things that we could say like, tell me his name. Tell me, what was it? What was it? What were his favorite things to do? What did you like to do together? You know, things like that. Well, exactly. And an example, like we had with the Girl Scouts, we talked about disenfranchised grief because we covered everything in two. We tried to cover everything in two hours. And, and when we, when the team started kind of knowing what that was, we talked about what does that look like for you? And she goes, well, for instance, one of my great grandmother died. And I told people when I was having a rough day in school, she was in elementary school at the time. They're like, what's wrong? And they're like, well, my great grandmother died. Now I'm in a farm community. Okay. A few hours and it's in the middle of Nevada. I'm in Reno, Nevada. So it's in a farm community and people were like, Oh, there was your great grandmother though. Right. And she's like, yeah. And she was like, I'm really sad by it. So we, we worked on with other kids in there that hadn't had so much death in there. How would we do things differently? And we're like, Hey, so-and-so. So I heard your great grandmother died. And I just wanted you to know, I'm sad by that. Cause I know she's helping raise you. She lives in your house. What was her name? Hazel. So sad to hear that Hazel died. If you don't mind me asking, how did she die? You know, we were role playing all this so they could get comfortable asking for the next, not just great grandmother, but step parent and pet death because those aren't, those aren't siblings and those aren't parents, but they're caregivers and they're people and pets in our lives. So our whole dialogue yesterday was having the conversation when you might think it's weird to step parent or a great grandma and even a pet, even a pet goat, even a pet goat with this one, it was just, it was a pet goat and she was just sad. And, but that's the start of the conversations. That's the foundation. That's the intentional dialogue for other deaths and losses that these teenage girls will have the rest of their lives, Brian. So it's, it's a beautiful thing when we can have these conversations and, and kind of see what it's like when you're actually saying, are we actually taking it? Yeah. And I know, I know, I think you say that, you know, dealing with grief is something that we don't really have naturally. We're kind of, I think we have to kind of learn it. And I think that's almost self evident from the fact that we do so poorly at it. We do, you know, we're, we're not equipped, uh, counselors and psychologists and teachers, you know, there's, there's more classes now than in the last 24 years than ever before, especially since the pandemic. We just don't know. And I tell people, you don't really just have to know, just be your natural self. If you accidentally, or you say, I'm sorry, then, then another question would be, are you having a funeral memorial? What's that like? Are you doing special colors? One thing about funerals, memorials that we've learned with our children is there's a couple of things there's themes. So ask those questions. Are you guys having a memorial or a funeral? We'd like to help out or be involved in. Is there a special color? Are you guys doing music? Can we help out with flowers? Can we pick up laundry or go pick up something? What do we tell people? We just don't know about this stuff. And it's hard for some people. And again, I can tell you right now, not even just research based on what we've learned, Brian, it's unprocessed grief. So many people are living right now and it's causing issues and their own lives with unprocessed, unacknowledged or unaddressed grief, because they still don't know what to do with it. And it's never, they didn't have the tools. They have, they've never dealt with it. And it's not like it's too late. You could be 80 to 80 years old. And if you want to start working on it now, it might be late for others, but for you, at least you're, at least you're doing some of it, you know, now. So you don't die that way. And I love what you gave those examples of some concrete things that you've been offered to do, because another thing as the person that's grieving, people will say to you, would just let me know if there's anything I can do. And the grieving person, it's like their mind, you're not functioning. You don't, it's better if you can offer, I can, I cut the grass for you or can I, can I bring something or can I, you know, help with the, with the, you know, the flowers or something like that? Because it's, it's putting too much pressure on that person's grieving and try to come up with something for you to do. Absolutely. So that's why podcasts, right? Actually trying it out when we go to workshops and we, even when we do grief in the workplace, I know that somebody died, but we're also trying to give tools at the same time. We're trying to commemorate and memorialize Bill who died, who's not coming back, right? Yeah. So this is a business company. So we kind of give those tools to help each other. Cause we know there's unprocessed grief, but also to help the company and to help the family of Bill, because now they're experiencing death for the first, and he was young or old or the seventh time. So it's always applying tools and, and always offering suggestions, but also trying it out. It's applied. So try it out and don't ever, don't ever be afraid to try some of these things out. Yeah. Cause it's better than nothing, as you know. Yeah, exactly. And now it's interesting cause I deal with so many people who are grieving and sometimes people will say things that are, that are hurtful, that are, that are insensitive. And I, you know, it's like, but at least, you know, look at where it's coming from, what they're, what they're trying to convey is what I try to tell people. So, you know, sometimes we will say things that are, that are awkward or clumsy. And, and again, I find myself, I'm sorry. I had something I've been really making an effort to move away from. And it depends on the circumstance. Cause sometimes you don't have that much time, but I always try to at least go deeper than that. I'm sorry. Tell me about them. I'm sorry. You know, something else, something that to kind of spark conversation. Yeah. You know, we've, we, we found, and I had to, I'll have to send this to you. It's either 35, I think it's 35 ways to let someone know that you're sad instead of using the word, sorry, it's a great thing. I learned it in my workshops and we kept what was another thing. And we, and we built this thing and I use it in my workshops. Awesome. And, and instead of saying, instead of saying, I'm sorry, you, there's so many things you can say to convey. I'm so sad, Brian, this has happened to you. I want you to know that we're thinking of you. And then also let's finishing with this only if you want to, I'd like to help or how can I help? They're overwhelmed. How can I help? Or I'd like to help. Or if you see the trash can in the front yard, take it up, right? Ask other family members. Wow. I'm their neighbor. I'm a friend. I work with so, so I'd like to know how I can help this family. We we've been friends for a long time. I've been talking to them in four months, let's say four years, right? Yeah. You just come up with all these things and then you just, you just do it. Yeah. Just do it. So I think that's a really, really good idea. Instead of asking that person, ask someone close to them what they need because they're going to, they're going to know. I unfortunately had a friend that just passed away like last April, really, really close neighbor. And I, and I was really, you know, watching his wife go through this and I could see just how overwhelmed, you know, people get, you know, you, you've got a thousand things. Someone says, what can I do? Your mind is just like, just short circuit. So ask someone close to them. Even if it's one of the other siblings or something. And even if you go to the house, here's what I, here's all the variables. Even if you go to the house and this just happened to you, it happened to you 11 years ago, but I have to believe you're not going to answer the door. Every time someone comes in the door, family is going to answer the door for you, right? Right. So here I am. Hey, I, I, I know I've heard the sad news and I want you to all know, I'm thinking of you. I wanted to let Brian know that me and my wife or me and my girlfriend or our family or our work, we're thinking of you all. And we want to help out. Is there, here's my phone with notes. Here's my, here's my, is there something that we can do? We'd like to help out. No, we're fine. Even if you get turned away, then here's, here's you, right? Well, okay. Thank you. Please let Brian and everybody know that we're thinking of them. And then you know what you do? You, you, you bring a dish or, or you show up a few days later. Hey, we're back. We'd like to help out. Is there anything that we can do just to take it off of the family? And by the way, is there a funeral memorial that, you know, don't, you know, just ask that question. We'd like to attend, you know, not everyone's going to do it, Brian, but we just have to become doers. And again, it's checking with that family that's involved that's answering the door or a text message. Because if it's your phone, when it happened, if it's your phone, you're not going to answer every single text message. So when you go to that house, you find out who else can I communicate? We'd like to bring some food. I mean, it's just, you do as much as you possibly can if you want to help out. Cause a lot of times you, you can't cause they're just saying, we just want to be with our family right now, but you're still going to say, well, we're here to help. And then you get the mail and you bring it up or you take the garbage can and you bring it up. Or you just bring by food, right? A thing of lasagna. You just ask, you get a coffee order. Yeah. Cause you know, the family, it's all the little things that are the big things. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's just, it's just letting people know that you're thinking about them. It's not, I think the other thing that people feel like, like I have to, I have to fix their grief or, or by bringing it up, I'm going to make them sad, you know? and I, it's funny cause I'll say, I mentioned, I mentioned Shana and she started crying. So I made her sad. And another big misconception, like we're not thinking about our kids constantly. Yeah. There's this thing that's going on in our program. When someone asks about a spouse or a child, when they ask, like, let's just say, hey, I was thinking about you. And I was wanting to just know, I wanted to ask how things were like with the family. And I was thinking about Shana too. And then here's what the running joke is kind of with the families. Oh, you want to talk about Shana? Oh my gosh. There's so many things. Did you know her favorite color by the way? Did you know her favorite sport? Did you know that she went to that school right there? You know, because people aren't expecting that. So families came up with this. They're like, well, they're afraid to say my daughter's name or my spouse's name. But when they say it, we're all in, we're like, Oh, you want to find, you want to, you want to know about Kevin? You want to know how we're feeling about Kevin? Oh my gosh. Let me tell you, because they're not going to be able to take it. So it was, they were having a, you know, it's, it's the humor piece and a support group of 24 adults who've had spouses and children die. Yeah. But instead of they're so afraid, and here's what they're saying. And you know, this they're so afraid to say my child's name and they're so afraid to say my spouse's name. Like, what do we do? It's weird. It's like, we just were at dinner two months ago or we took the kids to a soccer tournament. Now that we're not even friends, they don't check in, you know, they just keep going. And I, again, the thing I posted about, you know, instead of saying, I'm sorry, you know, ask questions about it. And people are like, I love everybody. Well, there were a couple of exceptions. There was one person that said, I had to share my husband with other people for 40 years. I don't really want to share him. I don't want to talk about him. Like, okay, there's an exception to every rule. And there was one person that said it's too fresh. It'd only been a couple of weeks or a few. And I'm like, okay, those are the exceptions. I found most people light up when you ask them about their loved one. And I'll even have people in my podcast. They'll come on and say, my, my, my daughter passed or my husband passed or whatever. And they'll use that pronoun. And even as they talk to them, they're all, and I'm the first thing I'll ask him is like, tell me his name and tell me about your relationship before we go on your story. And people are like, you know, no one ever asked me that before. No one asked me what my brother's name is. Oh, and I tell people too, if you get awkward, watch what happens when you do this. What's one? And there's going to be so many, but what's one funny thing about Shana? You can tell when she was a child or when she was dancing or when she sang or when she was just at the dinner table. I said, open it up that way because if you just say one thing, you limit it to one thing. Now they might tell you four things. I might find out four things if we have the time right now. And I asked you, what's one thing you remember about her? There's a hundred thousand and 65, right? So you're like, well, here's one thing, but now you're going to tell us three things, but there you go. And now it's like, wow, it's okay. I can ask that question. And I didn't know that she, that she, that she sang. I mean, we were kind of, we, we knew your family, but we didn't know she was taking singing lessons at the time. That's awesome. You know, and be proud because that's a privilege. And I tell people when someone talks about their spouse or their child, that's a privilege man. Yeah. And, and they start to get, it's like, and why is that? I go, because you get to learn things that nobody even knew or they never even told before. And you get to learn about that. You know, the person who died was no longer here, but you still keep her memory alive by asking those questions because I have to believe that family still doing traditions and carrying things on. Like if she was here and there's nothing wrong with that because that's how they do it. Yeah. You don't do it because you've never been through that before. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was funny because someone the other day, so I had that, that note that went kind of viral and people were just talking back and forth and someone said, tell me one of your favorite memories of saying it was when I took her to Taco Bell, you know, and I actually pulled up the picture and I sent it to her. And yeah, it really people for the most part, 99.99% of people love talking about their, their loved one. And they want, they want to, they want to keep their memory alive. And it's really awkward when you're with people and they don't, they don't bring them up. Um, and you, and you said it before, but I want to emphasize it for people that don't know when you do have a loss like this, there are going to be people that are gone that are, are going to leave your life and they're going to be people that are going to come into your life that you didn't expect. And you don't know who those people are until it happens. And then you get to find out who they really are. And I, and I want to say, and I should have prepped this, but as a disclaimer, I'm only an expert on grief for myself and everything I've been able to share today is I've learned from so many people. Um, and it's, it's been a privilege to learn from people about their, their parents dying, their spouse dying and their children dying. That's how I'm able to be on this podcast and share the joy, the memories and the life of the person who's no longer here. And I've been able to live vicariously for 24 years, just in this program and hear amazing stories and knowing now, cause I don't know if I knew this 30, 40 years ago that it's okay to continue to talk about the person who's no longer here. Keep asking those questions, keep letting them know that you're thinking of them, keep checking in, keep being available. And it's just easy. It's just easy. You learn so much about love, loss, and life. That's what I love about this job. So I just always appreciate when people share, you get to learn so much about the family and the person who's no longer here. So I just wanted to share that. Yeah. And I know, um, you talk about one of my, one of my, uh, pet peeves, I guess is the phrase, uh, moving on, moving on versus growing forward. So tell people what the difference is. Yeah. So we don't say he was pet peeve, right? And we don't say, it's been a year yet. Haven't you moved on or how come you're not over it yet? And it's such a, it's a bad word, if you will. Right. And so we're not, we're not moving on. We're not getting away from it. We're, we're moving forward with it. We're learning to live with it. And I've, I've been really, I've been told to be careful how I say it's a new normal. So I don't say it's their new normal. I don't say a family member has to say, well, it's our, it's our normal now without the word new. And it's not so much that because there's still, I have to believe families like yourself are still carrying on traditions and rituals. You're still remembering her. You're still having grief bursts. You're remembering her every single day, every moment, every time food, music, right? You're driving a song, all the things. And so we're, we're, we're learning to live with this now, but we're never going to get over it. And we keep moving forward like our human body. We just keep moving forward with her in mind every single day because your grief and your mourning will never end. So if they, if people don't have ever had that debt, they just wouldn't know. And of course it goes back to unprocessed grief. They just say it because they're like, I'm just going to say it. Right. Haven't you moved on from it? I mean, she's, it was 11 years ago, Brian, but, but then I tell people it's a teachable moment and here's Brian, right? Here's anyone else. Oh my gosh. And we've missed her and we love her and we think about her all the time. Matter of fact, we still, the, the disc that she made or that song that she used to play or all the things that we still do that. She's still a part of us. So we continue to grow and heal and grieve and mourn 11 years later. So I tell people I've learned that I've heard that I've heard it. So I've learned from people just keep moving forward with that grief. Does that answer your question? Yeah. And it's funny because when, when she passed away, I'd never thought about that phrase moving on and I heard it and it just, it just, it just bothered me. I'm like, I don't know why, you know, moving on. And I do know because I think about it now, it was like, okay, June 24th of 2015, she stopped. And when they tell me to move on, that means I'm supposed to keep going and I'm getting farther and farther away from her. And when I, when I heard moving forward, I'm like, okay, that makes more sense than moving forward with her, bringing that person with us. And there's a, there's an old model of, of grief, which, which I think was Freud. It was like, just get over it, right? They're gone, accepted, you know, it's acceptance of moving and moving on. I think the, you know, what I work with people on is like, we can bring that person with us. Like you said the rituals, Shane is still her birthday's January 13th or angel dates, June 24th, every January 13th, every June 24th, we go out for pizza and ice cream. So that's, that's what we do. My wife and I don't, don't work on those days. We take the day off. So those are, you know, those are rituals that we do, you know, around her in addition to all the holidays and stuff. So you don't have to move on. And people, you know, I've heard people say, Oh, well, you know, you should, you should move on. Cause that's healthy. I don't, I don't, I don't buy that. Yeah. Here's the, I just thought of this word. I've never, I've never thought about this. Well, what do you think about the word moving together? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool. It's a different perspective. Yes. You're moving forward. Our bodies move forward and we grieve, we grieve this way, but we move this way, but now we're moving, we're moving together. This is what we're doing because everything that you're doing, you're doing this with her this way. You might be grieving and it looks like this, but you're moving forward. I mean, you're moving together, you're moving together. Yeah. I want to say something with what you said, and I bring it up on only on podcasts and big presentations. If it comes to mind, I read a book. It, it was written in 1938 by a rabbi. And he said the best way to grieve is to grieve. And his, some of his, his apples were going for a walk, planning a garden, writing, coloring, exercising. And I was like, wow, that's huge. 1938. And it helped me years and years ago to let people know, I saw the research with the five stages of grief. It's an old medical model had nothing to do with, had nothing to do with death. So this five stages of grief was a concept, but the best way to get through grief is to grieve. And that's the moving together piece. And I wanted to share that with you because I just thought it was so important to share with others to know that. Yeah, we are moving. We're moving forward. I love the together piece, but we're grieving every day. It's not like I'm not going to see it. Like I would never know. I would never know, Ryan, that you were grieving because I, I have this privilege now, but you're grieving. You're going to be grieving the rest of your life and you'll do it in your way. And you'll be doing it in different ways. And you'll have grief bursts in your life. We'll be like this sometimes, or you'll just be like, I need a day. I need a day off today. Yeah. You need to reset. Yeah. So I can just be. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's like, I've learned a lot in the last 11 years, having gone through the loss. And I've been, like, you have been privileged. I've done over 500 podcast episodes now. So I've gotten to talk to people that have been through all different types of things. And I've realized that, you know, some of the things that we could do better, you know, and that's, that's what I want to do is help share that, you know, with, with people. So I appreciate you bringing this perspective to help, you know, with, with this thing about children as well. Cause we don't, we often forget about them. So we're, as we're getting ready to wrap up, tell people about your organization, the Solace tree. Yeah. Thank you. And I have to say, Brian, that those children will become teenagers, will become adults, will be family members, will be our coworkers someday, right? Right. So that's why it's important to start this conversation with them. So our organization is around 24 years. It started after nine 11. There was no training for anyone. We couldn't have these conversations about plane crashes because there was other conversations, abuse, death, divorce, and all of a sudden we're like, well, nobody wants to talk and listen to these kids talk about the death of a parent or a pet. We need to start having these conversations. Here we are 24 years later. It's a nonprofit organization. We see kids, teens, and adults ages, ages three. All this has been 93 and we help that we meet them where they are. We have a grief camp for kids at Lake Tahoe and we have Zooms, national Zooms on suicide, national Zooms, Zooms for, for men. But we, we meet every week for families to come and just know that they're not alone. And it's just been in a great organization where we can help people in the workplace and the sports space at home and really have those conversations with children so they can, you know, have some kind of foundation of what it's like to have bad news delivered. And so we support them in that way. Yeah. Well, it's, it's so important. It's important for everybody. And you mentioned earlier, we don't know if it's going to happen to us. I did. I always say we don't know when it's going to happen to us. If you live long enough, you're going to go through a grief event. It's just, it's inevitable. It's a part of life. And so it's important that we get people those skills. And again, you know, as you said, as children, especially because we, when we don't process grief, it just stays with us. I tell people, it's very patient. It'll be there whenever you're ready to process it. It might be five years later. It might be 10 years later. It might be 20 years later. I talked to a woman who lost a son. He was, I believe he was five years old. And it was like 13 years before she really, the grief earlier, because she, she kind of buried herself in other stuff. And because of the circumstances of passing, she just didn't process it. But when it, you know, when, when she was ready, it was ready for her. Yeah. Yeah. You never know. You never know. Yeah. We're just, we're, we're glad, you know, and what you're doing is a contribution. It's a contribution to life, to society, to culture, to religion. People used to say, you're just going to see white people. And I'm like, what do you mean? They go, people go to their pastors. They go to counselors and therapists. I go, no, we're building this because it's a contribution to society. We need to figure out why there's so much unprocessed grief. Why are people so angry because of the past, because they never were able to talk about that person who died. And so we're going to start, we're going to, there's going to be a paradigm shift in our city. And that's what we've been doing 24 years later is having that conversation, that intentional dialogue to be supportive, but also say, we're here just to listen and you can guide us to it. Cause we're not going to tell you how to grieve, but a lot of people, even if you never talk, are sure going to know what you're talking about. Cause they're going to get it. Yeah. Well, Amelia, what's the best way for people to reach out to either you or your organization? Yep. You can reach out to us at our website at www.solistree.org or they can call us at 7 7 5 3 2 4 7 7 2 3. We're open seven days a week. Awesome. And we're here, we're here for this community, but we're also here for the nation. Yeah. Well, I appreciate what you're doing. So thanks for being here today. It's great to meet you. Thanking of you and thanks for sharing as well. And nice to meet you.